Author Topic: Various changes needed in RI  (Read 752 times)

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Offline Duke87

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Various changes needed in RI
« on: March 19, 2017, 10:44:31 pm »
Some notes from the ground yesterday. There is a new street in Apponaug, Veternas Memorial Dr, which is the cause of much of this.

US1
- point RI117_W needs to be moved to the new location of the two routes diverging and renamed RI5/117
- point US1Bus/117 needs to be renamed RI117_E and relocated (slightly)
- point US1Bus/113 needs to be renamed RI113
- this may have been brought up previously but US 1 now runs concurrent with I-95 between exits 27 and 29, at least as signed. AFAIK RIDOT never obtained AASHTO's permission to make this change, or the more recent one in Apponaug.

US1BusWar
- needs to be deleted outright as it is no longer signed at all (drove the entire length of it and nothing)

RI5
- point US1 needs to be renamed US1/117 and moved up to the new location of the junction

RI113
- point US1Bus_S needs to be renamed PostRd (or removed, if not in use)

RI114
- point US1_S needs to be renamed HighSt (since US1 has been relocated onto I-95 out of downtown Pawtucket)

RI117
- point US1_S needs to be renamed US1/5 and moved up to the new location of the junction
- point US1_N needs to be relocated (slightly)

Offline yakra

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2017, 12:53:58 am »
US1
- point RI117_W needs to be moved to the new location of the two routes diverging and renamed RI5/117
- point US1Bus/117 needs to be renamed RI117_E and relocated (slightly)
Judging by what's in the HB, it looks like...
* The old route was a split alignment, couplet, whatchawannacallit, with northbound using Post Rd and southbound using (what is now?) Veterans Memorial Dr and Greenwich Ave.
* The new route is just Veterans Memorial Dr and Greenwich Ave, and that's it.
* Correct?

- this may have been brought up previously but US 1 now runs concurrent with I-95 between exits 27 and 29, at least as signed.
Dear God, you mean, it now does something... sensible?
Do RI15 and RI114 both still use their existing, infamously complex routings?

AFAIK RIDOT never obtained AASHTO's permission to make this change, or the more recent one in Apponaug.
I keep pretty close tabs on AASHTO approvals, and have not noticed these either.

US1BusWar
- needs to be deleted outright as it is no longer signed at all (drove the entire length of it and nothing)
Can you confirm that this is gone too?
With the new construction in the area, is there any remaining BY-PASS {1} signage?

RI5
- point US1 needs to be renamed US1/117 and moved up to the new location of the junction
The southern terminus is at the roundabout, correct?

RI114
- point US1_S needs to be renamed HighSt (since US1 has been relocated onto I-95 out of downtown Pawtucket)
Ugh. The mixed-up mile...
I'fd be inclined to use EastAve as the label, as no part of RI114 is routed there.

RI117
- point US1_S needs to be renamed US1/5 and moved up to the new location of the junction
- point US1_N needs to be relocated (slightly)
So, from the RI115 point (which could also be relocated slightly), RI117 follows Veterans Memorial to US1_N. Then from there, it turns south on Post Rd to the teardrop-shaped junction, and heads east on West Shore Rd. Right? If so, I think another point at the teardrop would be worthwhile.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 01:20:49 am by yakra »

Offline yakra

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2017, 01:06:34 am »
list of edits:

usausb.csv: delete US1BusWar
usausb_con.csv: delete US1BusWar


yakra.list: mixed-up mile, Pawtucket
RI RI114 US1/15 US1_S -> RI RI114 RI15_E EastAve deleted
RI US1 US44_E RI15/114 -> RI US1 US44_E I-95(27)


updates.csv
2017-04-24;(USA) Rhode Island;US 1;ri.us001;Northbound direction removed from Post Road and relocated onto Greenwich Avenue and Veterans Memorial Drive between Centerville Road and US1 Business / RI 117 (Post Road).
2017-04-24;(USA) Rhode Island;US 1;ri.us001;Removed from surface streets in Pawtucket's "Mixed-up Mile" and relocated onto I-95 between exits 27 and 28.
2017-04-24;(USA) Rhode Island;RI 117;ri.ri117;Eastbound direction removed from Centerville Road and Post Road and relocated onto Veterans Memorial Drive and Post Road between RI 115 and Post Road. Westbound direction removed from Greenwich Avenue (US 1) and Centerville Road and relocated onto Veterans Memorial Drive between US 1 / RI 5 and RI 115.


US1:
RI117_W +-> CenRd
RI5/117 added at (41.700638, -71.460217)
US1Bus/117 needs to be renamed RI117_E and relocated (slightly)
US1Bus/113 +-> RI113

RI114_N in use: deleted; AltLabel added to I-95(27)
I-95(28) added
RI15/114 in use: deleted. Edit yakra.list


US1BusWar: delete file
RI5: US1 relocated to roundabout (existing label retained; it's still valid)
RI15: US1/114 +-> RI114_S
RI113: US1Bus_S needs to be renamed PostRd

RI114:
US1/15 +-> RI15_E
US1_S +-> EastAve deleted


RI115: RI117 repositioned

RI117:
RI115 repositioned
US1_S in use; both directions; deleted
US1/5 added
US1_N needs to be relocated (slightly)
PostRd added at (41.699717, -71.453528)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 03:54:49 pm by yakra »

Offline Duke87

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2017, 09:03:07 pm »
* The old route was a split alignment, couplet, whatchawannacallit, with northbound using Post Rd and southbound using (what is now?) Veterans Memorial Dr and Greenwich Ave.
* The new route is just Veterans Memorial Dr and Greenwich Ave, and that's it.
* Correct?

Yes, correct.

Quote
Do RI15 and RI114 both still use their existing, infamously complex routings?

I saw no evidence to the contrary. However, signage in Pawtucket is... well, spotty. Had to check the map to follow RI15, three of its turns eastbound are completely unsigned. But that's aggravatingly typical for Rhode Island.

Quote
Can you confirm that this is gone too?
With the new construction in the area, is there any remaining BY-PASS {1} signage?

Can't confirm if that particular shield has been removed since I did not approach from that direction. What I can confirm is that:
- there are no reassurance markers for business US1 on the route itself, however this random "north US1" (regular 1 mind you, not business) shield is still there: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7086125,-71.4508808,3a,15y,64.68h,86.42t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVK3UY0JVn-f-_N8gwIoqoQ!2e0!5s20110901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
- there are no signs at the intersection of Post Rd and Main Ave indicating that any route turns there.
- there is no signage for Business US1 at the south end of Post Rd. There is new green signage which simply says "Post Rd" with no shield. One example has even already been caught by the street view van: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7009896,-71.4540277,3a,15y,343.26h,86.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1smmuptNgBdR3Ts1UAbwbz5A!2e0!5s20161001T000000!7i13312!8i6656
- I did not see any signs for Bypass US 1. Only for plain old US1.

Quote
RI5
The southern terminus is at the roundabout, correct?

Yes.

Quote
So, from the RI115 point (which could also be relocated slightly), RI117 follows Veterans Memorial to US1_N. Then from there, it turns south on Post Rd to the teardrop-shaped junction, and heads east on West Shore Rd. Right?

Yes.

Offline yakra

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2017, 01:49:23 pm »
Quote
Do RI15 and RI114 both still use their existing, infamously complex routings?
I saw no evidence to the contrary. However, signage in Pawtucket is... well, spotty. Had to check the map to follow RI15, three of its turns eastbound are completely unsigned. But that's aggravatingly typical for Rhode Island.
I downloaded some new (2016) shapefiles, but they're not new enough to show the relocation of US1. I'm going to assume RI15 & RI114 follow their same old routings.

Quote
Can you confirm that this is gone too?
Can't confirm if that particular shield has been removed since I did not approach from that direction. What I can confirm is that:
I'll ask Zack Lewis about it, and see if he knows anything.

- there are no reassurance markers for business US1 on the route itself, however this random "north US1" (regular 1 mind you, not business) shield is still there: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7086125,-71.4508808,3a,15y,64.68h,86.42t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVK3UY0JVn-f-_N8gwIoqoQ!2e0!5s20110901T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Hm. Now that's interesting. Look at historic Street View, and you'll see that this sign was important enough to be replaced between April 2011 and May 2012.
The shapefiles list its ROADTYPE as STATE, not US. But that doesn't necessarily mean very much; The old route northbound US1 was required to take is listed as STATE as well.

- there is no signage for Business US1 at the south end of Post Rd. There is new green signage which simply says "Post Rd" with no shield. One example has even already been caught by the street view van: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7009896,-71.4540277,3a,15y,343.26h,86.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1smmuptNgBdR3Ts1UAbwbz5A!2e0!5s20161001T000000!7i13312!8i6656
- I did not see any signs for Bypass US 1. Only for plain old US1.
The only BY-PASS {1} sign I'm aware of was here. With the reconstruction and new signage in the area it's almost certainly gone.

Ugh, why can't stuff be straIghtforward? I'm leaning toward calling US1BusWar gone, but not enough to take action yet. It's not 100% definitive IMO...

Offline yakra

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2017, 03:12:13 am »
Maintaining status quo on US1BusWar for now, and letting this vestigial route soldier on for a little while longer.

I've made commits for most everything else; the only thing holding me back from a pull request is updates text:

I figure I could say something like:
2017-04-11;(USA) Rhode Island;US 1;ri.us001;Removed from surface streets in Pawtucket's "Mixed-up Mile" and relocated onto I-95 between exits 27 and 28.
...which says it pretty cleanly. How much of a deal-breaker is it if I don't actually list all the surface streets it was removed from? I could say:
2017-04-11;(USA) Rhode Island;US 1;ri.us001;Removed from surface streets in Pawtucket's "Mixed-up Mile" and relocated onto I-95 between exits 27 and 28: Northbound direction removed from George St, East Ave, Main St, and Walcott St. Southbound direction removed from Broadway, Main St, High St, Summer St, Goff Ave (RI 15), Dexter St, Park Pl W, and George St.
...but that's starting to get a bit wordy.

Thoughts?

Offline mapcat

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2017, 07:46:41 am »
If the streets are followed by other signed routes that users might want to add to their list files to replace lost US1 mileage, then details would be helpful; otherwise, no need IMO.
Clinched:

Offline yakra

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2017, 01:30:23 pm »
If the streets are followed by other signed routes that users might want to add to their list files to replace lost US1 mileage, then details would be helpful; otherwise, no need IMO.
A good thought, yes. It's not simple, once i look into it... :\

If someone traveled southbound RI US1 RI15/114 RI114_N, that corresponds to
northbound (as it is in the HB now), RI RI114 US1/15 US1_S,
A.K.A. (as it will be after the update) RI RI114 RI15_E EastAve.

If someone traveled northbound RI US1 RI114_N RI15/114, well... it's mostly streets that are part of northbound RI114. But not completely. They may not have traveled all of RI114 between point A & point B, depending on how they look at things. Because derp.
So I'm at a bit of a loss for a good clean concise way to describe the situation.

This leads me to another thought I've had kicking around...
With US1 out of the picture, I see a bit less incentive to stick to Jason's original solution.
A common solution for couplets & split alignments, where practicable, is to take the "low-res" approach and cut across the middle, from a point at one end to a point at the other, without favoring any one direction of travel.
This could work for RI114 here; I could cut straight from US1/15 RI15_E to RI15_W, cutting out the US1_S EastAve point entirely.
Even if it means mapmikey and I lose a little mileage.
A convenient side benefit = I'll no longer have to worry about writing updates text to replace lost US1 mileage. :)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 01:34:08 pm by yakra »

Offline yakra

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2017, 01:56:06 pm »
Using the less wordy updates text for US1 in Pawtucket.

RI114:
Removing the old US1_S point at East Ave, as per my previous post.
Tweaking the coords at RI15_W to create an intentional NMP: that way, if a user has traveled RI114 northbound, they can still choose whether or not to mark off RI15 along Exchange St as needed.

Look into tweaking points south for more precise rendering of split alignment...
• I-95 only corresponds to the northbound alignment. In use by duke87 & oscar, to the north. I'll assume this was at the 2010 Providence Road Meet. Potential solution: +I-95 AltLabel at Walcott & Summit, with another point at Prospect & Division. ...Or should I even bother, because graphing? Right. In the interest of Making a Decision, I'll leave it as-is. No need to reinvent the wheel. I don't know how exactly this would affect duke87 or oscar's travels, and I don't need to start a long PM thread to sort it out. Can't pay attention to all the tings all the time.
• BevHillAve moved here, as both directions of travel pass thru this point.

yakra.list: delete RI RI114 RI15_E EastAve
nmpfps.log: RI15_W/RI114_N

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1215
Leaving this thread marked unsolved because the potential removal of US1BusWar has not been addressed yet (stuff color-coded red in this post).
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 03:55:36 pm by yakra »

Offline Duke87

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2017, 02:08:08 pm »
Bumping with a couple more items, as noted from yesterday's trip.

RI 114: signage has it following Broad St and Blackstone St through downtown Cumberland (what OSM shows matches the signage). This also means there is a RI 114/RI 123 concurrency.

RI 51: is completely unsigned. Should therefore be deleted, per SOP to not include unsigned routes.

Offline yakra

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2017, 05:29:19 pm »
RI 51: is completely unsigned. Should therefore be deleted, per SOP to not include unsigned routes.
ISTR reading somewhere back in the day that this is an unsigned route. I found nothing in GMSV, and it's not shown here, here, or here. Yes, it should get the axe.

RI 114: signage has it following Broad St and Blackstone St through downtown Cum4berland (what OSM shows matches the signage). This also means there is a RI 114/RI 123 concurrency.
Broad St south of RI123 definitely looks right.
RI123 and north, I'm less sure of. Commencing with the thinking out loud in 3, 2, 1...
Blackstone St is not shown on the 2016 Official State Highway Map or State Highway Routes Map.
it is on the Highway Functional Classification Map , shown as a Major/Urban Collector, vice the Principal & Minor Arterials for other numbered routes in the area. (This distinction doesn't necessarily mean much though, as numbered routes *can* be on collectors, E.G. the soiuth end of RI77 and most of RI51.)
RIDOT GIS shapefiles:
Broad St north of RI123, RTNO = NULL.
All of High St north of RI123, RTNO = 114.
Blackstone St, RTNO = NULL, and ROADTYPE = NULL, vice ROADTYPE of STATE for all Broad, Dexter, and High.
If I can download newer shapefiles, will anything be different? Newest shapefiles are still dated 2016-03-10.
GMSV:
At Dexter and High, signage consistently shows RI114 existing to the north on High St.
Southbound, RI114 is shown to take a right onto Dexter, beginning its RI123 concurrency.
Signage along Dexter itself, and at Dexter & Broad, shows RI123 only.
Northbound on Broad at Blackstone, there's a TO NORTH RI 114 -->. I'd take the TO to suggest that Blackstone isn't actually part of RI 114 itself. Blackstone is visibly lower standard, narrower with no centerline. (Again, RoadType = Null, not State.) There's no corresponding signage for the left turn, heading the other direction.
OTOH @ the other end, we've got this. :( Again, no corresponding signage for the left turn heading the other direction.
I'm almost inclined to write it off as a case of the missing "TO" that we see now-n-again in roadgeekdom. However -- this too?
Most recent imagery here is mostly 2012, with a little 2009 thrown in. @Duke87, did you see anything significantly different in your travels?
Attempting to drive thru and follow the routes...
NB, I'd miss the unsigned turn onto RI123 & continue to Blackstone, where I'd see TO NORTH RI 114 -->. No signage at High St; I'd have to figure out on my own that I need to make the left turn.
SB, I'd take a right onto Blackstone (and thus not even see the signage at Dexter & High), and seeing no signage at Broad, I'd continue straight to get lost on Factory St somewhere.
Either way, I'd travel Blackstone St before getting lost. Either way, I'd need to know to make a turn that's unsigned.

On the one hand,
I could let the fact that I need to know in advance which turns to make where be my guiding philosophy.
NB, if my "advance knowledge" says to turn onto RI123, I hit the signage @ Dexter & High, and life goes on.
SB, if I know to just keep on truckin' past Blackstone, I hit the signage @ Dexter & High (but also need to know to turn left to follow RI123).
The advantage to this approach is that it nicely makes things match the DOT maps & shapefiles. Seems to be the "official" route in that regard...

On the other hand,
I could take more of a pure follow-the-signs approach. Tracing out a route from either direction puts me onto Blackstone St.

CHM/TM veterans: Thoughts?
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 05:33:14 pm by yakra »

Offline froggie

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2017, 11:12:33 am »
Quote
CHM/TM veterans: Thoughts?

Go with the shapefiles.

Offline yakra

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2017, 05:15:29 pm »
I've been kind of leaning that way.

Anyone else?

Offline Duke87

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2017, 11:07:23 pm »
@Duke87, did you see anything significantly different in your travels?

I didn't see anything different from what's visible on GMSV. It's a mess and I could see this going either way. I lean towards moving the route only because the modification I suggest is what I did following the signs, and what anyone else following the signs would also do.

Offline yakra

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Re: Various changes needed in RI
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 02:19:21 pm »
I decided to go with the RI114 routing shown in the shapefiles.
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1527