Author Topic: Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?  (Read 4501 times)

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Offline froggie

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Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?
« on: January 02, 2017, 09:16:10 am »
(Spoiler:  it's gone)

Inspired by a comment Yakra made in another thread, I took a look at whether a small bit of IN I-164 in Evansville (west of US 41) remained, but was simply hidden/unsigned.  We currently have it in the highway browser as the short bit that wasn't taken over by I-69.

Per INDOT shapefiles dated October, 2016 (and available for download here), I-164 no longer exists.  Furthermore, the shapefiles show I-69 as extending west of US 41, to the point where the "westbound" C/D road merges back with the mainline.

This makes it clear to me that I-164 no longer exists in any fashion.  As far as the extent of I-69, one could argue based on the shapefiles that INDOT considers the ramps at both US 41 and Kentucky Ave to be part of the same interchange complex, but I'll leave it to others as to how they want that one to play out in the Highway Browser.

Offline mapcat

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Re: Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2017, 09:32:27 am »
What determines whether or not it's an unsigned interstate: appearance in state highway logs, or federal legislation, or something else?


I agree that there's no evidence of this one in the field, and its number makes no sense. I'd be happy to wrap it into I-69 or Veterans Pkwy once we have some clarity on what determined that it remain after the renaming of the rest of I-164 in the first place.


We'll need to revisit this again in a few years after the new I-69 Ohio River bridge is built.
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Offline yakra

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Re: Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2017, 02:15:31 pm »
Wherein yakra exhumes, copies, pastes and edits his old thread that he trashed before writing this...

This sounds good enough for me. I was originally going to advocate for I-164's removal; I just had enough doubt cast on the thought process before deciding to go all the way down the rabbit hole. :)
The shapefiles sound like a good enough, conclusive resource to make this decision, without having to email INDOT and ask.

Furthermore, the shapefiles show I-69 as extending west of US 41, to the point where the "westbound" C/D road merges back with the mainline.
This is especially significant. This location is a pretty exact match for the 21.39 mi listed in INDOT's application, or the 21.24 mi in Table 3 of the Route Log & Finder List. So, this could count as one argument in favor of "The whole thing has been changed over & renumbered."

As far as the extent of I-69, one could argue based on the shapefiles that INDOT considers the ramps at both US 41 and Kentucky Ave to be part of the same interchange complex,
That was sort of my takeaway too. Perhaps Si, and/or Tim back in the Dark Ages, had a different interpretation of "One Point Per Interchange" from INDOT.

I haven't looked at the shapefiles, but the map in the AASHTO application shows "Interestate" roads in red -- and this included the ramps at other interchanges. So, it could be that the roadway west of US41 is considered ramps -- that pesky fact of INDOT's mileage figures notwithstanding, that is. :-\

but I'll leave it to others as to how they want that one to play out in the Highway Browser.
I'll put my two cents in, though. :) I like the One-Point-Per-Interchanginess and nice-clean-graphiness of just ending it at US41. In which case, I-69Whe could be left in the HB exactly as is, and I-164 deleted, and used as an AltRouteName for I-69Whe.

What determines whether or not it's an unsigned interstate: appearance in state highway logs, or federal legislation, or something else?
For my part, I'd say, recognition by the FHWA. (It's possible other collabs may differ on this a bit?)

What's the FHWA Route Log & Finder List got to say?
Table 2 - Auxiliary Routes does not contain an I-164 listing. (It seems they're not 100% consistent about updating lengths and locations for existing routes -- note ME I-295 & I-495...)
Table 3: Interstate Routes lists IN I-69 at 273.47 miles -- just about right for the sum of the I-69 & I-69Whe sections in the HB (275.01 mi), taking the 2% fudge factor into account. However, it also still lists I-164, at a full 21.24 (contrast this to 20.70 as per the AASHTO application...) miles. Whatever update FHWA needs to make here (delete, or change mileage) has not happened. Inconclusive.
Table 4: Major Cities Served by Interstate Routes does not contain an I-164 listing. Evansville is listed as being served by I-69 only.

So, the Route Log & Finder List, going by the tables that have been updated, seems to point toward an "I-164 doesn't exist" conclusion...

I agree that there's no evidence of this one in the field, and its number makes no sense.
+1

...once we have some clarity on what determined that it remain after the renaming of the rest of I-164 in the first place.
Not that I can speak for Si, but it could be that his determining factor was what I quoted from the AASHTO app in the other thread: pretty clear language and mileage figures indicating that not all of I-164 was to become I-69...

But Wait! Lemme go ahead & get REALLY pedantic with that language!
Quote
Length of the route in miles: The overall route length of I-164 is 21.39 miles. The segment of I-164 that is proposed to be eliminated, renamed AND [emphasis added] resigned as I-69 over an existing facility is approximately 20.70 miles long.
So, an unstated possibility is that the remainder of I-164 was also to be eliminated -- just not renamed and resigned as I-69. BOOM!
So, as to what the actual outcome of their application is, we could punt that determination off to the FHWA -- and my reading of that particular crystal ball is above. :)

Regardless of INDOT's apparent intent in the AASHTO application (from I-64/69, 20.7 mi ~= the US41 interchange; 21.39 mi ~= just about exactly the gores at the west end of the Kentucky Ave interchange), my takeaway from the shapefiles is that the whole thing's been changed over.

We'll need to revisit this again in a few years after the new I-69 Ohio River bridge is built.
Ayuh. :(
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 02:20:28 pm by yakra »
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Offline bejacob

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Re: Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2017, 03:44:16 pm »
Wow, that's a lot of info.

The easiest thing to do would be to delete I-164, leaving I-69 as it is. What is currently in the HB for I-164 is concurrent with Veterans Pkwy, so getting rid of I-164 wouldn't affect clinched mileage as long as users have Veterans Pkwy in their lists. 

The question is whether that's the right thing to do. Given what's been posted, it makes a lot of sense to remove I-164 from the HB. It probably still exists on paper simply because the final steps to decommission it haven't been completed. Seems like there was a similar discussion related to I-66 in KY not long ago.

Offline froggie

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Re: Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2017, 05:26:51 pm »
Quote
It probably still exists on paper simply because the final steps to decommission it haven't been completed.

If INDOT's shapefiles are any indication, yes it has been completed.

Offline mapcat

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Re: Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2017, 07:53:15 pm »
Based on what's been brought up so far, the best solution seems to be to add I-164's remainder to I-69. It agrees with the shapefiles and won't result in anyone losing any interstate mileage (for now). I think there are actually two interchanges (US41 & Kentucky Ave), so even though cleanliness is commendable, I foresee some future questions about the complicated interchange if we pretend it's simpler than it really is.

My remaining question would be what to do with Veterans Pkwy. I would prefer to leave it alone, meaning that the current overlap with I-164 remains an overlap with I-69. But I can also see paring it back to Kentucky Ave.
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Offline mapmikey

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Re: Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2017, 09:32:51 pm »
FWIW, the 0.0 mile marker for I-164 in the field was on top of the US 41 overpass...

Offline yakra

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Re: Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2017, 12:12:44 am »
INDOT shapefiles dated October, 2016 (and available for download here)
Which layer(s) listed on the page did you look at?
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Offline mapcat

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Re: Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2017, 01:01:56 am »
INDOT shapefiles dated October, 2016 (and available for download here)
Which layer(s) listed on the page did you look at?
I saw it in Interstates_INDOT_IN.
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Offline froggie

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Re: Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2017, 08:22:11 am »
The Interstate one was the main one I looked at, but I also looked at a few other of their shapefiles.

Offline yakra

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Re: Whither the presumably hidden IN I-164?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 01:41:34 pm »
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/commit/3586ad72d60e7d7586047001645cd9291abe4ab2
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1046

I-164 has been deleted from TM, and added as an AltRouteName for I-69Whe.
Marking this topic as solved.
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