Travel Mapping

Highway Data Discussion => In-progress Highway Systems & Work => Topic started by: si404 on February 05, 2017, 09:39:16 am

Title: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on February 05, 2017, 09:39:16 am
I just hope they're added soon along with autonomical roads, they are a big part of the road network of my country. I couldn't believe that they hadn't been added yet.
Given it's a huge and fairly complex system, it's unsurprising that we haven't done it. It took me over 100 hours just to bring the autovia/pista system up to date two summers ago. Most of the routes were already mapped (though I had to tweak them to fit better mapping data), and it took that long!

We're talking at least 10 working weeks worth of work for just the roads with N numbers. And you are surprised that we haven't already added not only them, but the Autonomous Community Roads (presumably just the Red- and Orange-signed ones)? This is a volunteer-maintained site!

They are on my to-do-list, but the Spanish road network is daunting and there's other pressures on my TravelMapping time, which is getting smaller and smaller. Gone are the summers where I can spend two weeks of 8-hour days and then several hours a day for most days in the rest of a three-month period that allowed the bringing up-to-date of most of Europe, and the creation of many of Europe's tier 4 systems: most of which took less than a working week's worth of work to bring to activation.
Title: Re: Spain Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on February 18, 2017, 04:19:22 pm

If you want them added, you gotta step up and help out with them yourself. That's how I got started with maintaining Washington state. It was clear nobody was going to fix any of the issues I reported, so the only way they were going to get fixed is if I took over maintenance of Washington. If you're interested in helping out, I would suggest PMing Jim.

Mod edit: Sorry I clicked the wrong button and accidentally edited your post! I meant to quote your post, not edit it.
Given it's a huge and fairly complex system, it's unsurprising that we haven't done it. It took me over 100 hours just to bring the autovia/pista system up to date two summers ago. Most of the routes were already mapped (though I had to tweak them to fit better mapping data), and it took that long!

We're talking at least 10 working weeks worth of work for just the roads with N numbers. And you are surprised that we haven't already added not only them, but the Autonomous Community Roads (presumably just the Red- and Orange-signed ones)? This is a volunteer-maintained site!

They are on my to-do-list, but the Spanish road network is daunting and there's other pressures on my TravelMapping time, which is getting smaller and smaller. Gone are the summers where I can spend two weeks of 8-hour days and then several hours a day for most days in the rest of a three-month period that allowed the bringing up-to-date of most of Europe, and the creation of many of Europe's tier 4 systems: most of which took less than a working week's worth of work to bring to activation.

I understand what you're talking about, and I'm so sorry that I wrote in that impatient way (English isn't my first language and in Spanish "I can't believe it" hasn't the same strongness as in English). I'm also in several projects and I know that sometimes there's not enough time for everything, and I would get involved if I wasn't busy with them. Because of that, I prefer to wait until that systems are implemented or I have time to do it myself, though there's no need to hurry, I can be patient :)
Anyway, if you have any doubt regarding Spanish road systems, I'll be glad to answer it!

Sorry another time, and have a nice day!
Title: Re: Spain Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on February 18, 2017, 05:02:40 pm
Don't worry about. Actually your request reminds me that a couple of years ago, I got a request to do India's National Highways. I spent three days doing the Asian Highways in India with the plan to some day do the National Highways (or allow someone else to do it easily) and replied to the request that I'd done this for now and there would be more to come at some point in the medium term. One person - not the one who asked for Indian Roads - has under 30km of 3000km (at least) travelled and that's it.  :-[ I'm not doing the national highways system - not least as India was a chore to do.

At least Spanish National Highways will get some usage!
Title: Re: Spain Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on February 19, 2017, 02:57:03 am
16 users drove Spanish autovias (espa) and 28 users drove Italian autostradas (itaa). I think both countries are it worth to get a tier 4 system (In addition, I have some mileage on both systems and I wanna travel to Spain again this spring). Dunno about Greece (grceo in development) but only 4 user have grca mileage.

I think Spain and Italy are the last remaining big European gaps which are not yet covered on that level. Potential national road networks are espn + itass. However, both systems are large and signage is quite bad. It makes it hard to draft the routes. See previous discussion about Italy:

If we want to introduce the SS Italian system,

Of course, we want! It's just a matter of having a full list of signed roads et cetera.....

Quote
I think the only sensible way to do that is consider the entire road, not considering the "downgraded" sections that are handled by provinces, otherwise you'll end up with a road segmented in tens of small stretches far away from each other and with little meaning. This would be quite easy, since for instance Italian Wikipedia lists all of them in their original configuration.

Do the rededicated sections have a new number, like SP123 (signed or unsigned)?

It depends on the Region or Province that now handles them. Some provinces keep the number of the SS road and only change the prefix; some others change also the number, some others leave the entire name as before or add prefixes and/or suffixes.

I think the central issue is that we only cover signed roads. Drafting espn or itass would require a time-consuming GSV search...

On the other hand, I thought beln has a similar problem but it applied to the A,B,C,... segments of 1-digit N roads only...
Signage at roads which only lead to the actually numbered road is quite common all over Europe... except some (northern) countries with dotted edge.

Are there minimum lists containing all espn or itass routes? Or official maps like available for Norway (https://www.vegvesen.no/vegkart/vegkart/), Sweden (http://trafikinfo.trafikverket.se/LIT/#url=Vagtrafiken/Karta), Bavaria (https://www.baysis.bayern.de/webgis/synserver?project=webgis) et cetera?
Title: Re: Spain Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on February 19, 2017, 03:33:25 pm
(...)
Are there minimum lists containing all espn or itass routes? Or official maps like available for Norway, Sweden, Bavaria et cetera?
If you want a list of all national roads in Spain, there's a list in the Spanish Wikipedia, and other from the government:
https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Carreteras_Nacionales_de_Espa%C3%B1a (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Carreteras_Nacionales_de_Espa%C3%B1a)
http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonlyres/BFE3720F-F919-4ADA-9CCA-BC6F99FD8EEB/137467/Informe4.pdf (http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonlyres/BFE3720F-F919-4ADA-9CCA-BC6F99FD8EEB/137467/Informe4.pdf) (All roads staring with N-, if they only have a number (like [N-1], [N-3a]...) it should be written in roman ([N-I], [N-IIIa]) though listed as regular ones, because that's how they're signed actually; more info below.
http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonlyres/F61F9F71-8FF6-4494-81C0-1FB1A0AED9A5/139812/MapaIntensidad_2015.pdf (http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonlyres/F61F9F71-8FF6-4494-81C0-1FB1A0AED9A5/139812/MapaIntensidad_2015.pdf) a map with traffic data from 2015, it also shows the road numbers of almost all the national roads without seeing the dense low tier autonomical network.

Some additional information:

-All national roads in Spain use the letter N- in white over red as indicator. We use roman numbers for the radial ones, that were the first ones to be built ([N-I], [N-II], [N-III], [N-IV], [N-V] and [N-VI] and three digit numbers for the rest [N-XXX], assigned according to the sector where they are (sectors are marked by the radial ones). If you find roads in red indicators but without the N-, (like the C-12, for example) they aren't national roads, but autonommical roads from some regions that use the color red for their first class roads.

-As the most busy stretches of them have been converted to motorways, they can be intermittent sometimes. That is especially common with the radial ones, as most of the times the new radial motorway ([N-I] -> [A-1], [N-II] -> [A-2], ...) was built OVER the old radial national road and only mountain pass stretches and parts entering into villages remain as the original road. Other times, the old road is preserved as a service road for the new motorway and runs parallel from it. If a new motorway is built following the route of a national road, it usually (not always) takes its first two numbers ([N-501] -> [A-50], [N-540] -> [A-54], ...) this can be useful when searching for missing ones.

-Sometimes, national roads are transferred to autonomous communities and change denominations, so some of the list could be very short, intermitent or no longer exist. Trust in the signs, mileposts, and panels posted seen in Street View.

-National roads are only present in mainland Spain AND the African enclave of Ceuta. Do not bother to look into the Canary and Balearics, they're all autonomical there.

-When a national road is duplicated (for example, when bypassing a village that the road used to cross), a letter (usually a) is added after the number in one of the stretches to differentiate it (like N-IVa]. Very seldomly, the letter is added in capitals or after a -. They keep being considerated the same road as before. Other times letters are added for administrative reasons sometimes and appear with letters in road lists, but usually that extra letters aren't used actually; so trust in the signs, mileposts, and panels posted seen in Street View.

If there's any doubt, feel free to ask
Title: Re: Spain Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on February 20, 2017, 01:24:06 pm
@Si: What do you think about cutting a deal for espn like we've done for norfv*?

@Pepe: If you wanna help, you could check on GSV if the routes are really signed. Post GSV links from the beginning and end of each segment. Let's start with N-I to N-VI which might be the most difficult routes.

*First batch done (Fv7-Fv98 = norfv0), only wait for your latest E/Rv fix upload to bring it to preview.
Title: Re: Spain Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on February 21, 2017, 09:33:46 am
@Si: What do you think about cutting a deal for espn like we've done for norfv*?
What, you make it, but I maintain it and continue to maintain it? Sure.
Title: Re: Spain Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on February 21, 2017, 01:20:39 pm
Yep :)
Title: Re: Spain Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on February 23, 2017, 04:52:12 pm

@Pepe: If you wanna help, you could check on GSV if the routes are really signed. Post GSV links from the beginning and end of each segment. Let's start with N-I to N-VI which might be the most difficult routes.


Of course, I'll send the links asap!
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on February 26, 2017, 01:09:28 pm
Sorry for double posting! Here's N-I:

N-I:
[spoiler]
Before listing the stretches, I notice that there are some roads listed in Google Maps as N-I that aren't part of it at the moment (some of them became autovias which got replaced later and the remaining stretches lost their numbering, other parts are now autonommical roads, etc.).And as in most radial roads, when they got replaced with the motorway, sometimes their signs were removed, so trust me, I'll use anyway other indicators that the road was there.
Another important notice: the A-1 motorway (which replaced the N-I and was called N-I at first because it usually was built over the old road) is usually still signed as N-I in the Basque Country (and the same happens with other antional roads converted into motorways), but it's NOT PART of the actual N-I but from the A-1 (Stupid politicians...). Simply, don't count N-I if it's signed with blue backgrounds along it.
Ok, here we start:
1 - A stretch that wasn't converted into motorway because they wanted to bypass the villages the N-I crossed. It starts in the crossing between the M-608, N-320 and A-1 (https://goo.gl/maps/wuPnSUhwBmk), crosses Venturada, bypasses Cabanillas de la Sierra, crosses under the A-1 to serve as service road, returns to the other side to pass through La Cabrera and ends abruptly in the curve of a minor road because it used to continue straight, but the motorway was built over it (exactly here (https://goo.gl/maps/KKBSGPFpw4M2), notice the old markings and the rest of asphalt at the front. This stretch is not signed as N-I in guide signs though there are some things that tell us that this still belongs to the N-I. First, that it's the main street of all the towns it crosses (in Cabanillas it used to be, look at Calle Real), it ends into the motorway, the pavement in non repaved parts looks torn out because of the heavy traffic that passed here before they built the motorway and we can still find old signage telling us that this is the N-I, like these milemarkers telling that this is the km 54: https://goo.gl/maps/o67MPT8jND32 (https://goo.gl/maps/o67MPT8jND32)
2 - Same as the previous one, starts in the exit 72 of the A-1 (https://goo.gl/maps/2U96gM39cuz), continues as a service road, enters into Buitrago del Lozoya, crosses Venta de Mea and merges abruptly into the A-1 here (https://goo.gl/maps/cyccruMSaC12). Same circumstances as the previous one, here some signs and mile markers telling that we're on a part of the N-I:
https://goo.gl/maps/AAUTssvBJwD2 (https://goo.gl/maps/AAUTssvBJwD2)
https://goo.gl/maps/5aqgE3Ns9M32 (https://goo.gl/maps/5aqgE3Ns9M32)
https://goo.gl/maps/9rf4BRqHb2M2 (https://goo.gl/maps/9rf4BRqHb2M2)

3 - This stretch was also kept for bypassing the towns that crossed it and because of the geographical conditions: there's a mountain pass there and they couldn't simply convert it. It starts from this dead end (https://goo.gl/maps/MfGydEq14Qx) (because the motorway was built over the previous part), crosses Robregordo, passes over the motorway, runs through Somosierra, coronating its mountain pass and continues straight as a service road for the different fields there, ending in this sudden dead end (https://goo.gl/maps/V7G8kapVLtr) created by the motorway.
Along with the things mentioned before, it's worth noticing that there are many three lane stretches, which reminds us that this was a very busy radial road in the past part. Here some more kilometer markers and milestones showing the numbering, the first ones quite new indeed:
https://goo.gl/maps/akYNYHpTybv (https://goo.gl/maps/akYNYHpTybv)
https://goo.gl/maps/Yxi6zbEf94L2 (https://goo.gl/maps/Yxi6zbEf94L2)
https://goo.gl/maps/ECiK2GHFHEs (https://goo.gl/maps/ECiK2GHFHEs)
https://goo.gl/maps/vEDUAMwizEz (https://goo.gl/maps/vEDUAMwizEz)
https://goo.gl/maps/kK5pNG9vBkm (https://goo.gl/maps/kK5pNG9vBkm)
https://goo.gl/maps/gN1G2zk3BCr (https://goo.gl/maps/gN1G2zk3BCr)

4 - This section, which is wrongly tagged as N-110 in Google Maps, is another one that was bypassed, this time not by the motorway, but by the own N-I, and then the bypass got upgraded into a motorway. The stretch that runs through the village is named N-Ia accordingly, though remember that the suffix only denotes an alternate itinerary, not a different road. It starts in A-1 exit 100 (https://goo.gl/maps/2zYBMFbDWFD2), continues until the village of Cerezo de Abajo, and crosses it to end in this roundabout connecting with the A-1 and N-110 (https://goo.gl/maps/4xPKH2NXi9T2). We can also find three lane parts on this stretch. Here some more kilometer markers clearly showing the N-1a numbering, and there's even a sign showing distances!:
https://goo.gl/maps/bX66DqVzXcU2 (https://goo.gl/maps/bX66DqVzXcU2)
https://goo.gl/maps/54c3z8KYbWT2 (https://goo.gl/maps/54c3z8KYbWT2)
https://goo.gl/maps/saMaZAdJKCu (https://goo.gl/maps/saMaZAdJKCu)

5 - Here, other stretch bypassed, quite short actually, starts in A-1 exit 109 (https://goo.gl/maps/hT8VyHxp3D12), gives access to Castillejo de Mesleón, and after a crossing turns into a very dilapidated road (but that certainly looks as that it has been a major road in the past) and ends suddenly into a dead end created by the motorway (https://goo.gl/maps/KUZnxavCRfk). Unfortunately, no signage remains of this stretch, though it's quite clear that in the past was a part of the N-I (starts and ends in the motorway, three lane stretches making it a very wide road for the area it serves now, and we can also see lots of restaurants, hostels and shops (most of them closed now) which remind us that this was once a busy major road.

6 - Another bypassed section, starting at the A-1 exit 115 (https://goo.gl/maps/ySF9viQsxgM2), crosses Boceguillas and ends into the motorway too (https://goo.gl/maps/jC1s1j2cfHE2).
Here some kilometer marker signs and a milestone:
https://goo.gl/maps/QpC2eNY2xd12 (https://goo.gl/maps/QpC2eNY2xd12)
https://goo.gl/maps/1H4ayWQyGnv (https://goo.gl/maps/1H4ayWQyGnv)
https://goo.gl/maps/jPetQjgawKR2 (https://goo.gl/maps/jPetQjgawKR2)
https://goo.gl/maps/kXWqFde6zJK2 (https://goo.gl/maps/kXWqFde6zJK2)

7 - This bypassed stretch, quite long, starts at this roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/Mdjss4atxGz) (note the guide sign with the road number) connecting A-1 exits 146 and 147 with the village of Milagros and crossing it, then passing through Fuentespina, after that there's an interchange with the A-11 motorway , encircles the town of Aranda de Duero (though in the past it ran straight through the heart of it), gives access to Monte Costaján and merges finally into the A-1 (https://goo.gl/maps/tGLSZYTBcQ62).
This section is also plenty of kilometer markers and milestones, along with guide signs:
https://goo.gl/maps/KXxNnR1uH9n (https://goo.gl/maps/KXxNnR1uH9n)
https://goo.gl/maps/6pjF6SX9P2v (https://goo.gl/maps/6pjF6SX9P2v)
https://goo.gl/maps/R9J1taTbgT22 (https://goo.gl/maps/R9J1taTbgT22)
https://goo.gl/maps/RDUuvNim3t12 (https://goo.gl/maps/RDUuvNim3t12)
https://goo.gl/maps/hyj9mwDCPLy (https://goo.gl/maps/hyj9mwDCPLy)
https://goo.gl/maps/j2dFMWyGkTF2 (https://goo.gl/maps/j2dFMWyGkTF2)
https://goo.gl/maps/DHAA5g2C5RR2 (https://goo.gl/maps/DHAA5g2C5RR2)
https://goo.gl/maps/kPAkDS8G5yN2 (https://goo.gl/maps/kPAkDS8G5yN2)
https://goo.gl/maps/tMi32RMAU222 (https://goo.gl/maps/tMi32RMAU222)
https://goo.gl/maps/feNbNjaanoF2  (https://goo.gl/maps/feNbNjaanoF2)(a reassurance sign)
https://goo.gl/maps/S5Bz2oiDbLM2  (https://goo.gl/maps/S5Bz2oiDbLM2)(a distance one)
https://goo.gl/maps/VhZexgvDXwr  (https://goo.gl/maps/VhZexgvDXwr)(same, southbound)
https://goo.gl/maps/8UtTkX8g6zv  (https://goo.gl/maps/8UtTkX8g6zv)(the N-Ia in this case refers to the streets where the road used to go through in Aranda de Duero until it was bypassed (the bypass is what today is N-I), add it if you believe it's important)
https://goo.gl/maps/r3JAnSU43z12 (https://goo.gl/maps/r3JAnSU43z12)
https://goo.gl/maps/cqFmYGqABJD2  (https://goo.gl/maps/cqFmYGqABJD2)(here the works of the N-I/A-11 interchange, now the A-11 is finished but GSV hasn't been updated, here you can see one of the guide signs in that motorway, leading to N-Ihttps://goo.gl/maps/rEDSxA52srT2, bad quality is because this is seen from the A-1 in its own interchange with A-11)
https://goo.gl/maps/ZjB1FVzUvmr (https://goo.gl/maps/ZjB1FVzUvmr)
https://goo.gl/maps/o6fue81qHbo (https://goo.gl/maps/o6fue81qHbo)
https://goo.gl/maps/3UztNJMYwSF2 (https://goo.gl/maps/3UztNJMYwSF2)
https://goo.gl/maps/vbykAnbFh2q (https://goo.gl/maps/vbykAnbFh2q)
https://goo.gl/maps/b5Cp4y431un (https://goo.gl/maps/b5Cp4y431un)
https://goo.gl/maps/HvznHRM8E5n (https://goo.gl/maps/HvznHRM8E5n)
https://goo.gl/maps/siQDiojqRuT2 (https://goo.gl/maps/siQDiojqRuT2)
https://goo.gl/maps/GpAY4dBehf82 (https://goo.gl/maps/GpAY4dBehf82)
https://goo.gl/maps/85ZvtTto8Rq (https://goo.gl/maps/85ZvtTto8Rq)
https://goo.gl/maps/FGUtbi1Yfd92 (https://goo.gl/maps/FGUtbi1Yfd92)
https://goo.gl/maps/Dz61FP3jS1F2 (https://goo.gl/maps/Dz61FP3jS1F2)
https://goo.gl/maps/hqfhYVUhk7F2 (https://goo.gl/maps/hqfhYVUhk7F2)
https://goo.gl/maps/v1uKqj3osqE2 (https://goo.gl/maps/v1uKqj3osqE2)
https://goo.gl/maps/tCTMZsqXhXQ2 (https://goo.gl/maps/tCTMZsqXhXQ2)
https://goo.gl/maps/gZseocVpTbU2 (https://goo.gl/maps/gZseocVpTbU2)

8 - Another short bypassed stretch, starts at this dead end (https://goo.gl/maps/sDsmqEaUHY72), gives access to Gumiel de Izán and ends in this roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/QxENBPr3CrA2) with the 171 exit of the A-1.
Here a milestone telling that this is part of the N-I
https://goo.gl/maps/LjMvtbR7J3m (https://goo.gl/maps/LjMvtbR7J3m) (it looks brand new though being more than 60 years old!)

9 - Other short section bypassed, starting in this curve (https://goo.gl/maps/jEZLX53u1Ln) (note the old road going straight), passes under the motorway, passes through the village of Quintanilla de la Mata and ends in this roundabout  (https://goo.gl/maps/FsM2BSDM34k)connecting it to A-1 exits 198.
Here a kilometer sign showing this stretch is part of N-I:
https://goo.gl/maps/Ygcqyh23GCE2 (https://goo.gl/maps/Ygcqyh23GCE2)

10 - Other stretch bypassed, starts in the A-1 exit 200 (https://goo.gl/maps/EVLoTwFX9Yr), goes straight into the town of Lerma, crosses with N-622 and merges with the A-1 (https://goo.gl/maps/FThFGMyjb5k).
Kilometer signs:
https://goo.gl/maps/xZkiEjxqiUD2 (https://goo.gl/maps/xZkiEjxqiUD2)
https://goo.gl/maps/XRhWeNL1uqr (https://goo.gl/maps/XRhWeNL1uqr)
https://goo.gl/maps/JacwPYnvceE2 (https://goo.gl/maps/JacwPYnvceE2)

11 - This looong section starts as the other ones, bypassed, for avoiding the city of Burgos. Most of the streets where N-I passed through have been transferred to the city, so now the N-I in the city starts at this crossing (https://goo.gl/maps/iLYDhdDpeHM2) , then after exiting the city; A-1 motorway ends and merges into the N-I (https://goo.gl/maps/WfhHFwMiSb22) while there's an alternate fast route using the AP-1 tollway. After crossing many towns and villages, just before entering the Basque Country the road turns another time into the A-1 motorway in a roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/EsVJ6nLq1rQ2).

12 - This is the last section I found so far. It's wrongly signed as A-3310 at the beginning (https://goo.gl/maps/XuaSFEu835p), but that's another road which crosses this stretch later. Here's, for example, a confirmation sign some meter later showing this is the N-I actually  (https://goo.gl/maps/raPuarFwveB2) (though wrongly signed as N-1). More (https://goo.gl/maps/7HNTK3vKYDv) and more milestones (https://goo.gl/maps/K4uTBUhY9MQ2) confirm us that. Here's the actual A-3310 (https://goo.gl/maps/F8UH9Xc1iCr). Then, the road continues as N-I without any wrong sign now (https://goo.gl/maps/pZD2HJw4a2L2). After a while, it turns into a dual carriageway road that probably was an attempt at doing an autovia in the 70s and ends bifurcating exactly here (https://goo.gl/maps/UEpdxT87GXQ2). This milepost (https://goo.gl/maps/ojNppz4khLQ2) ensures us that that last part was also a section from the N-I.
[/spoiler]

N-II will come soon!
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on February 26, 2017, 04:11:07 pm
Wow, thanks :)

I've drafted the first 6 routes: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1134. Should be in the HB with the next update Jim is running.

I've started with no. 1-4, 6 and 7 because unsigned (no. 5) routes are generally excluded (I'll continue with no. 8 tomorrow).

Your info is quite good :) It's not necessary to post so many links like you've done for no. 7. Just the "first" and "last" relevant one or from locations where the route is not clear (the 6 routes drafted are clear because they are on OSM and GM). It would help, if you could generally add the motorway exit number or cross road numbering from the beginning and end of each route. If the road is parallel to a motorway, I usually begin and end at the interchange even if there is a "little gap", e.g. the ramps from a roundabout to the motorway carriageways. Maybe I'll omit "dead ends", for instance, "NIRob" ends at exit 92. We don't include "old alignments" but signed routes only.

@Si:
1. Do you think the routes drafted are fine?
2. What do you think about exit 76 (NIBui), should we move it to the other ramp? Generally, do you wanna do modifications like this (how to report) or should I do it?
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on February 27, 2017, 06:54:32 am
Wow, thanks :)

I've drafted the first 6 routes: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1134. Should be in the HB with the next update Jim is running.

I've started with no. 1-4, 6 and 7 because unsigned (no. 5) routes are generally excluded (I'll continue with no. 8 tomorrow).

Your info is quite good :) It's not necessary to post so many links like you've done for no. 7. Just the "first" and "last" relevant one or from locations where the route is not clear (the 6 routes drafted are clear because they are on OSM and GM). It would help, if you could generally add the motorway exit number or cross road numbering from the beginning and end of each route. If the road is parallel to a motorway, I usually begin and end at the interchange even if there is a "little gap", e.g. the ramps from a roundabout to the motorway carriageways. Maybe I'll omit "dead ends", for instance, "NIRob" ends at exit 92. We don't include "old alignments" but signed routes only.

@Si:
1. Do you think the routes drafted are fine?
2. What do you think about exit 76 (NIBui), should we move it to the other ramp? Generally, do you wanna do modifications like this (how to report) or should I do it?

Ok, thanks for your work, I'll do my best!
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on February 27, 2017, 02:26:56 pm
I've added the remaining N-I routes no. 8 to 12 and no. 13 from A1 exit 405 to GI-11 near the AP1/AP8 interchange (mostly concurrent with existing E5).
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on March 01, 2017, 05:26:56 am
Hello again! Here's N-II!
N-II:
1 - A bypassed section starting at this stub (https://goo.gl/maps/7USfrvRPWvs) and ending in a roundabout with CM-2011 and A-2 exit 73  (https://goo.gl/maps/ywGwU6SXSv92). Unfortunately, no signage has been preserved, but it's quite clear that this is a part of N-II (abrupt ending because of the motorway, the name "Ctra. Zaragoza" (Zaragoza's the next big city N-II crossed) and the strange wide for a service road.

2 - Other bypassed section, starting here (https://goo.gl/maps/QVkMd3ieMsB2), where it merges with the A-2 motorway; here  a dilapidated distance sign covered with grafitti (https://goo.gl/maps/BXHPM5f9tmy) (the top reads N-II, though it's quite blurry), and after crossing Algora, another one along with a milestone (https://goo.gl/maps/eZujWw6gG8E2), for ending in this roundabout connecting A-2 exit 113 (https://goo.gl/maps/XojYU7Vh8522).

3 - Other bypassed stretch, wrongly labeled as N-IIa, starts at the roundabout between A-2 exit 118 and an unnamed short road towards GU-118 (https://goo.gl/maps/nj76LsL6Ru62). Then, enters Torremocha del Campo for ending as a motorway ramp here (https://goo.gl/maps/Q4S7oP3QudH2). Here's a kilometer sign (https://goo.gl/maps/7x9VmbXwwC82).

4 - A bypassed section giving acces to the village of Sauca, starts at A-2 exit 126 (https://goo.gl/maps/aiHD21A1R5n) and ends in exit 129 (https://goo.gl/maps/Bo7oaCNmwNs). A kilometer signs (https://goo.gl/maps/c1uCsWvUBRQ2) tells us that this is part of N-II.

5 - Another bypassed one, starting at A-2 exit 141 (https://goo.gl/maps/EtsuUV4Vvhp), passes through Esteras de Medinaceli and ends in exit 144 (https://goo.gl/maps/WamB6E3PhLU2).

6 - This other, for avoiding the town of Medinaceli and other villages, starts at exit 145 (https://goo.gl/maps/E6k9KANcZjL2), crosses the modern part of the town, passes under the A-15, then under the A-2, crosses the villages of Lodares, Jubera, Somaén and Arcos de Jalón and ends in this roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/bm6yUc9Yah32) for merging into the A-2. There is a big amount of signage in this section, even street one (https://goo.gl/maps/saNrnrobqao).

7 - Another bypassed stretch, starting at exit 177 (https://goo.gl/maps/2CzsTecp2cu), giving access to Santa María de la Huerta and ending at the merge here (https://goo.gl/maps/5aSXgFEH7Au) . Here two signs (https://goo.gl/maps/wVAckxybF6y), just before it.

8 - This section, which is wrongly labeled as Z-V-3511 (though there's no signage in the stretch as Z-V-35119), starts at A-2 exit 190 (https://goo.gl/maps/dt7uJ7DSbM72) and ends at this bridge which covers it (https://goo.gl/maps/AxcRQ4xo2352). Here, these kilometer signs (https://goo.gl/maps/CAc7sAqbEtq)  tell us that we're actually in the N-IIa, and also does this one (https://goo.gl/maps/qTbpRsiMSUK2).

9 - This long stretch (one part of it N-II and the other N-IIa) starts at exit 204 (https://goo.gl/maps/Q1kD1xodkWv), gives access to the village of Contamina, crosses Alhama de Aragón, Bubierca, Ateca, Terrer, Calatayud and, after interchanging with A-2 (exit 242), becomes a parallel service road to separe some meters later. Then, it gives access to Aluenda and returns to the motorway at exit 252 (https://goo.gl/maps/LfzNeGv9AC52). Some extra kilometer signage tell us this is part of N-II:https://goo.gl/maps/sUhzbwgP8nG2 (https://goo.gl/maps/sUhzbwgP8nG2), https://goo.gl/maps/hcMJCHeZXDp (https://goo.gl/maps/hcMJCHeZXDp)

10 - This section starts at A-2 exit 260 (here a confirmation sign later telling this is N-IIa (https://goo.gl/maps/amgqYsdinux)), enters La Almunia de Doña Godina, passes under the motorway and ends in exit 273 (https://goo.gl/maps/tzBtCiUvkZN2). Extra sign if needed: https://goo.gl/maps/svrEh87rjUB2 (https://goo.gl/maps/svrEh87rjUB2)

11 - This stretch starts at the merging in exit 296 (https://goo.gl/maps/MsMwAGVHjgP2), crosses La Muela and becomes detoured to the north because of the access to exit 299. Then, it passes through a tunnel and ends in a roundabout with exit 301 (https://goo.gl/maps/aotx69PpTMG2). Direction signs ommit this is N-II, but this kilometer sign (https://goo.gl/maps/y44qMBzQrbw)  (close to the merging) and this other one (https://goo.gl/maps/67qLCoorZa82) (in the tunnel entrance) tell us we're on N-II.

12 - This section, that goes through the heart of the city of Zaragoza, starts at the A-2/Z-40 interchange (https://goo.gl/maps/PTEeVqXJ1UL2) as an avenue going straight into the city and ending in a roundabout with Vía de la Hispanidad and Av. de Madrid (https://goo.gl/maps/MYbcnR923fo). The road used to continue through the later, but now that street it's transferred to the city. This kilometer sign (https://goo.gl/maps/geFKqLuxr8G2) tells us this last section is also N-II.

13 - This one starts at Z-40 exit 15 (https://goo.gl/maps/bJ8q5Fz6Pw52) , crosses some industrial areas, goes through La Puebla de Alfindén and Alfajarín, and then the A-2 interchanges with it, becoming the AP-2 tollway after that, making the N-II the main toll-free route in the area and creating huge truck traffic over it. After, it gives access to Nuez de Ebro, ARA-A1 autonomical motorway, Villafranca de Ebro and Osera de Ebro, crosses Bujaraloz, Peñalba and Candasnos. When the A-2 returns, N-II separes to the north for crossing Fraga, passes over the motorway to continue as a service road in both sides of the A-2 until the roundabout with exit 447, where it separes to serve Alcarrás and enters Lleida, where it ends in a roundabout with LL-11 (https://goo.gl/maps/N7vUqskvodo) (which is a renumbering of N-II actually hahah).

14 - A long section. Just when LL-11 ends merging into the A-2, its exit 1 returns us to the N-II (kilometer sign just after it (https://goo.gl/maps/ZiZqDbLonEU2)), enters Bell- Lloc d'Urgell, Sidamunt, Mollerussa, Golmés, Bellpuig, where in A-2 exit 498, (which also links to it (https://goo.gl/maps/ERPpXueKNXT2)) turns into a service road in both sides of the motorway. After some kilometers, separes for giving access to Vilagrasa and Tàrrega, where another time turns into A-2 service road while linking with an exit (510), separes another time for going to Cervera, runs parallel to the motorway for several kilometers, arribes to Jorba and in A-2 exit 549 does the same as in exits 498 and 510 until exit 551, where it separes for serving Igualada, and merges with A-2 when arribing to Ca n'Alzina (https://goo.gl/maps/RmyDR3qqkNE2). This sign (https://goo.gl/maps/rKUPgUnuNFo) leading there shows us that's N-II.

15 - This strecth starts at A-2 exit 564 (https://goo.gl/maps/ftEQCMoBbZq) and is signed as N-IIz, as this signs a bit further (https://goo.gl/maps/qQfX6GKMzUG2) down shows. After linking with A-2 in exit 570 becomes a service road of it, separes to serve Bruc and ends in exit 572. A kilometer marker just before the exit 572 (https://goo.gl/maps/CryVTS2Nizw) shows us this is still N-II.

16 - N-II reappears in this roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/oreY9UzxYhz) in a suburb of Barcelona called Martorell, continues through a industrial area and the Barcelonese conurbations of Sant Andreu de la Barca and Pallejà, to merge with the N-340 (https://goo.gl/maps/UUY9Zgp5EBQ2) before Can Ros. Here a sign in the opposite direction (https://goo.gl/maps/JrT3zDK9oVr) of the interchange.

17 - In this crossing in Mongat (https://goo.gl/maps/4iRc81rJ5Jy), near Badalona, N-II returns as this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/wmB3ycJPzfH2) tells us. After a while, it links with exit 216 of C-31, then links in a roundabout with the B-20 and C-32 (as this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/QUJ1o1GrtgQ2) shows), passes through El Masnou, Premià de Mar and Vilassar de Mar, to finally merge with C-32 to bypass Mataró (https://goo.gl/maps/EVJrDzct6hP2).

18 - Although the merging with C-32 in the previous stretch, the road used to go through the city before the bypass and this itinerary is still signed as N-II, so what we have here is that the N-II here divides to either bypass or cross Mataró. Then, the stretch would start in that division (https://goo.gl/maps/EVJrDzct6hP2), but going straight up.
Althought it's not signed in the division (probably to encourage drivers to go through the bypass and make traffic inside the city lighter) several signs tell us that it goes through the city:
In a roundabout with B-40 located a bit after the division:  https://goo.gl/maps/UTnganQe6G72 (https://goo.gl/maps/UTnganQe6G72)
In another roundabout with a street: https://goo.gl/maps/eZ9NQFVs3PQ2  (https://goo.gl/maps/eZ9NQFVs3PQ2)
In the Plaça Laietana roundabout (both ways): https://goo.gl/maps/KxfYS67qMRx (https://goo.gl/maps/KxfYS67qMRx), https://goo.gl/maps/3MAu6j8Qynw (https://goo.gl/maps/3MAu6j8Qynw)
And in several more (like in the one with Ronda Barceló), that I'm not gonna post for avoiding an excess of links.
After exiting Mataró through Avinguda del Maresme returns to have its typical wide (here a kilometer sign (https://goo.gl/maps/h2dnq1Qt3LD2)), goes through Can Sanç, Arenys de Mar (where it crosses with C-61), Canet de Mar, Sant Pol de Mar, Calella and Pineda de Mar, gives access to Malgrat de Mar, interchanges with C-32 in its exit 130 (https://goo.gl/maps/SFTiDUpFZ9P2), serves Tordera and Sant Pere, interchanges with C-35 and C-63, and after interchanging turns finally into the A-2 motorway (both ways): https://goo.gl/maps/BZaAMyiBxqK2 (https://goo.gl/maps/BZaAMyiBxqK2), https://goo.gl/maps/pyF2zs6j1GN2  (https://goo.gl/maps/pyF2zs6j1GN2)

19 - When A-2 ends near the city of Girona, N-II reappears in both N-II and N-IIa (according to their itinerary, N-IIa crosses the city and N-II bypasses it). In this stretch we are going to focus on N-IIa. After the end of the A-2, N-IIa starts here (https://goo.gl/maps/LXPgnagJKPH2), crosses industrial areas and suburbs, goes under the C-65, crosses the town through Carrer Barcelona (Barcelona street, here's a sign (https://goo.gl/maps/eAFx1EwRxkD2)), Gran Via de Jaume I and Avinguda de França (France Avenue), (here some signs at this street: https://goo.gl/maps/6UX654CdPum (https://goo.gl/maps/6UX654CdPum), https://goo.gl/maps/zToxMSrsuU22 (https://goo.gl/maps/zToxMSrsuU22)) and merges finally into N-II (both ways): https://goo.gl/maps/y6zGQDFBtYR2 (https://goo.gl/maps/y6zGQDFBtYR2), https://goo.gl/maps/hH99E6gBhr92 (https://goo.gl/maps/hH99E6gBhr92).

20 - When A-2 ends near the city of Girona, N-II reappears in both N-II and N-IIa (according to their itinerary, N-IIa crosses the city and N-II bypasses it). In this stretch we are going to focus on N-II. After the end of the A-2, N-II starts here (https://goo.gl/maps/LXPgnagJKPH2), interchanges with C-65, then with C-66 and then N-IIa merges into it. After that, goes through Medinyà, links to AP-7, crosses Bàscara, and, before arriving to Figueres, also divides into N-IIa. We'll cover that N-IIa stretch that goes right into Figueres (N-II bypasses it) in section 21. After that, gives access to El Pont del Príncep, interchanges with C-31, C-260, N-260, N-IIa (it merges here) and AP-7 in its exits 3 and 2, crosses the town of La Junquera, interchanges with AP-7 another time in its exit 1 and arrives to the border town of El Pertús, where it ends in the border with France, where it turns into the D900 (both ways): https://goo.gl/maps/7MDBrC8Eouu (https://goo.gl/maps/7MDBrC8Eouu), https://goo.gl/maps/WER1JUV3ho22  (https://goo.gl/maps/WER1JUV3ho22).

21 - N-IIa, which crosses Figueres instead of bypassing it, starts in this division of the N-II (https://goo.gl/maps/S2gqVkDadK72) , crosses with C-26 and C-31, enters the town where it crosses with N-260 (a street sign in N-260 (https://goo.gl/maps/Q1kQtNqDfPq) showing that it crosses the town) and merges finally with N-II (both ways): https://goo.gl/maps/suB8P72NkdU2  (https://goo.gl/maps/suB8P72NkdU2), https://goo.gl/maps/N8Pg3pXpFts (https://goo.gl/maps/N8Pg3pXpFts).

BTW, one of the stretches of N-I that you added (NI (Beasain)) isn't part actually of N-I though being signed as that, but from A-1, as I explained before. Furthermore, new signage erected there shows A-1.

N-III will come soon!
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 01, 2017, 11:59:08 am
BTW, one of the stretches of N-I that you added (NI (Beasain)) isn't part actually of N-I though being signed as that, but from A-1, as I explained before. Furthermore, new signage erected there shows A-1.

I've discussed this issue with Si in 2015. He wrote that the section is N-I according to TM rules. Routes are to be called like they are signed.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on March 01, 2017, 03:46:23 pm
BTW, one of the stretches of N-I that you added (NI (Beasain)) isn't part actually of N-I though being signed as that, but from A-1, as I explained before. Furthermore, new signage erected there shows A-1.

I've discussed this issue with Si in 2015. He wrote that the section is N-I according to TM rules. Routes are to be called like they are signed.

There's signage showing both denominations in that section and they are updating the old signs to show A-1 instead, but I understand it, so leave it as N-I if you want, it's actually Basque DOT fault (stupid, stupid politicians hahah)  :P
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 02, 2017, 03:21:47 pm
NII/NIIa/NIIz: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1138

Notes:
1: Not signed, not in HB
2: one way only and short, not in HB
3: NIINor
4: NIISau
5: NIIEst
6: NIIArc
7: NIIMar
8: NIIaAri
9: NIIa
10: NIIaAlm
11: NIIMue
12: NIIZar
13: NII
14: NIICer + NIIaIgu
15: NIIz
16: NIIAnd
17+18: Merged to NIIMat
19: NIIaGir
20: NIIFig
21: NIIaFig

Please always indicate if the route has a suffix, e.g. N-IIa. Thanks.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on March 03, 2017, 02:50:50 pm
Please always indicate if the route has a suffix, e.g. N-IIa. Thanks.

Ok, I'll do it from now! Here's N-III (no N-IIIa, or suffixes, don't worry)

1 - The first remaining stretch of N-III I've found starts at this roundabout in Arganda del Rey  (https://goo.gl/maps/2xipS66DmFC2)(wrongly colored, there's also a sign pointing backwards, but there's no signage in the previous streets, so I assume the parts before have been all transferred), after partly bypassing the town, exits it, then interchanges with A-3 (exits 33, 33A and 33B), crosses with M-220 and A-3 exit 35, contiunes towards Perales del Tajuña and ends in the roundabout (here's a sign of it: https://goo.gl/maps/7RcVGYZHf1z (https://goo.gl/maps/7RcVGYZHf1z)) with M-204 and A-3 exit 41.

2 - This section starts at A-3 exit 79 (https://goo.gl/maps/eRtpWLiYE5C2), and though not signed, there is a kilometer sign (https://goo.gl/maps/1Qsycw1kBkp) some meters later. After bypassing Tarancón and crossing with N-400 (shares denomination with it for some meters), then interchanges with N-400 (ending the sharing), passes under the A-3 connecting with its exit 85, to finally merge with it here (https://goo.gl/maps/Cx4WNhaunKN2). Here's a kilometer sign (https://goo.gl/maps/JafzrUyMwBT2) a bit before the merging 

3 - This stretch, which starts at A-3 exit 93 (https://goo.gl/maps/eqNjFwEUwkk), crosses Villarrubio and ends in exit 95 (https://goo.gl/maps/GByfrVKpeNn), only has this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/Ac5Uw89aDnp) remaining (note the decolored by the years N-III numbering in the top part, this sign is so old it even uses the French font Caractères!)

4 - There's another stretch in Saelices from exit 101 to a stub, though as there's no signage it cannot be part of Travel Mapping. I'm posting it anyway just for any curious roadgeek reading this, as this stretch bypasses an old N-III section with the original cobblestone pavement of the CNFE (first network of roads in Spain suitable for cars), dating back to the 1920s. This historical section starts here (https://goo.gl/maps/LRv6ayaZ3zo). Also, in the whole section you can see intersting stuff like ancient signage and even yellow markings in the road center (like in the US) sometimes, as the roads in Spain were yellow marked for separating lanes back in the 50's.

5 - This part starts at A-3 exit 114 (https://goo.gl/maps/KhFxJy82KHU2), crosses Montalbo and ends in exit 117. This section also has very interesting old signage, like this (https://goo.gl/maps/doY2u5cjjSU2) (that's supposed to be a gas pump!), but what matters is that it's actually part of the N-III, as this kilometer sign shows (https://goo.gl/maps/KZRFApoLkJu) (sorry for the angle, plants obstruct the view).

6 - This stretch starts at exit 130 (here a kilometer sign just after it (https://goo.gl/maps/KYBRrMEQr382)), crosses Villares del Saz (here's (https://goo.gl/maps/8ZfcNRh1nsm) the road number above the village name) and ends in exit 133 (https://goo.gl/maps/XixaPQh6ACw).

7 - This long section going through the beautiful reservoir of Contreras, and which I've had the luck to clinch partially starts at A-3 exit 165 (https://goo.gl/maps/njhAyeVUKfJ2), passes through Honrubia, goes over Alarcón Dam, crosses Motilla del Palancar, where crosses with CM-220, gives access to Castillejo de Iniesta, Graja de Iniesta and Minglanilla, to interchange with CM-211 and arrives to Contreras mountain pass, where it gets very scenic. After going through a tunnel (and linking with CV-4661 before, that goes where the N-III used to go before the building of the Contreras Dam and it's a quite beautiful mountain drive), and other one, goes over the Contreras Dam, which also separes Castile-La Mancha and the Land of Valencia. Another tunnel awaits us (now in the Valencian side); leaves the mountain area to pass under the A-3 for giving access to Villagordo del Cabriel, where it crosses with CV-474; after that, it goes over the AVE high speed railway, goes through Caudete de las Fuentes and Utiel, where crosses with N-330, CV-392 and A-3 exit 278, then with exit 281, passing under it. After that, it links with exit 285, later it crosses San Antonio, then it bypasses Requena (which also has a very nice cobblestone part) and finally merges into the A-3 in exit 291 (https://goo.gl/maps/AnN6kymZTyw).

8 - N-III returns in this roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/sBUHuyM2oHR2), linking it to exit 306, goes under and then over the A-3 to serve some housing developments, then enters Buñol and continues as a service road for the motorway for a while to finally merge near exit 322. Here's a sign (https://goo.gl/maps/QmQNS3Y4sx12) in the other way next to Buñol just to be sure.

9 - This stretch starts at this roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/NT4HxjikpSy) (a milestone (https://goo.gl/maps/3aXZavorJMQ2) some meters later tells us this is N-III), bypasses Chiva and ends in a stub made by the motorway (https://goo.gl/maps/UNwbr77DVSK2).

Thanks for your work!
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 04, 2017, 05:02:25 am
You're welcome. N-III done:

1: NIIIArg
2: NIIITar
3: It seems to be an old sign. The section is indicated N-III on GM but not on OSM or the Fomento map
4: -
5: NIIIMon
6: NIIIVil
7: NIII
8: NIIIBun
9: NIIIChi

I'll upload it later or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 05, 2017, 09:13:33 am
I've drafted the routes which are (partially) concurrent to existing E roads:

N122 (E82)
N152 (E9)
N154 (next to N152)
N234 (started by mistake because it's next to N330)
N330 (E7)
N340 (E5)
N357 (E15)
N430 (E903 unsigned)
N620 (E80)

https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1140

I'll continue with N400 parallel to you because I wanna visit the region this spring :)
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 06, 2017, 02:26:02 pm
N400+ done: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1145.

How do we wanna draft CA-36 in Cadiz?
It's indicated with blue CA-36 signs all the way between CA33 and CA35 but it's not a divided highway on the bridge and west of the bridge. The beginning of Autovia sign is east of the bridge.
OSM indicates CA36 from here to the east and N443 for the west section but I couldn't find any N443 sign on GSV (only on AP4 east of CA34). GM indicates CA36 all the way.
CA33 wp label is 'N443' (no evidence) and CA36 on CA35. In addition, CA32 wp with AP4 is called 'AP4/N443'?!?
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on March 07, 2017, 02:25:21 pm
How do we wanna draft CA-36 in Cadiz?
It's indicated with blue CA-36 signs all the way between CA33 and CA35 but it's not a divided highway on the bridge and west of the bridge. The beginning of Autovia sign is east of the bridge.
OSM indicates CA36 from here to the east and N443 for the west section but I couldn't find any N443 sign on GSV (only on AP4 east of CA34). GM indicates CA36 all the way.
What happens is that at first that was the N-443 all the way, but then they intended to upgrade the N-443 into a high-capacity roadway for serving Cádiz, the CA-36. The problem is that the José León de Carranza Bridge is only three-lane (as it was built for a national road, not for a motorway) and cannot be upgraded to a motorway bridge easily because it's a drawbridge, and that there's no space for upgrading into a motorway in the west area (it's surrounded by Cádiz city), so they only upgraded the east part. Anyway, the road keeps being CA-36 in the west part as this distancemarker (https://goo.gl/maps/XMoPXo7cpy92) and this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/wM6E1KRE2bH2) show. The bridge is also part of CA-36, according to this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/WXpfSv6E5sP2) and this other one (https://goo.gl/maps/Urm7CxCiS2B2). I couldn't find any sign N-443 sign either.

What probably happened is that that stretch was numbered as N-443 at first and recorded in OSM and GM as N-443, and then the government decided to upgrade it and then renumber it (probably around 2002-2003, there were loads of renumberings back then because of a new law) to CA-36, but it wasn't updated correctly in OSM and partly in GM. Then, CA-36 all the way from CA-35 to CA-33.

Keep in mind that having a blue shield and using that numbering doesn't mean that road must be an Autovía or Autopista. Blue almost always means motorway, but sometimes they do things like here and use blue signs for non motorway stretches. Also, remember that suffixes for cities (used for beltways and accesses) like M-40 (Madrid), SE-30 (Seville), V-21 (Valencia), etc. are used for main accesses and bypasses, but that stretches aren't forced to be motorways. For example; in Zaragoza, it's outer beltway, Z-40, is a dual carriageway freeway, but the following beltway (if going towards the city center) is Z-30, which is simply a ring of avenues. Another example is Soria, which has an access numbered as SO-20 which in a part is a motorway and in another, a regular road.

CA33 wp label is 'N443' (no evidence) and CA36 on CA35. In addition, CA32 wp with AP4 is called 'AP4/N443'?!?

I don't know what are you referring to with wp label ^^b, though the N-443 part with the CA-33 happens because of the same explained above, it was upgraded. CA-36 is as stated above, and CA-35 runs from the AP-4/CA-32/CA-35 interchange until Cádiz, going through the 1812 Constitution suspension bridge. For making it clear, on the east part there's a very big shipyard (easily seen from above, has the biggest drydock in Europe), then the road going above the shipyard is CA-35, the one going under it, CA-36. The issue with CA-32, if you're referring to its ending in AP-4/CA-32/CA-35 interchange, that could be because CA-35 was also N-443 in the part located before the CA-36 intechange, but now it's upgraded.

Well, I believe that's all, feel free to ask more things if needed  :D

N-IV will come soon!
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 08, 2017, 01:10:19 pm
Keep in mind that having a blue shield and using that numbering doesn't mean that road must be an Autovía or Autopista. Blue almost always means motorway, but sometimes they do things like here and use blue signs for non motorway stretches.

We could put it into eursf system (tier 2) but see below.

Also, remember that suffixes for cities (used for beltways and accesses) like M-40 (Madrid), SE-30 (Seville), V-21 (Valencia), etc. are used for main accesses and bypasses, but that stretches aren't forced to be motorways. For example; in Zaragoza, it's outer beltway, Z-40, is a dual carriageway freeway, but the following beltway (if going towards the city center) is Z-30, which is simply a ring of avenues. Another example is Soria, which has an access numbered as SO-20 which in a part is a motorway and in another, a regular road.

Should we draft another tier 4 or tier 5 system for these roads one day?

Some are already drafted as espa or eursf system routes. If I'm not mistaken, Si's rule was:
- blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1
- orange signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2
- red signed highways: espn - tier 4

However, I only wanna draft N routes for espn because the system name is "Carretera Nacionales" (national roads).
Maybe we could create a new system (tier 4 or tier 5?) for regional/city/whatever "red signed" routes once espn will be completed?

What's about green shielded routes (http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=1964) with freeway standard? Tier 2, tier 5?

I don't know what are you referring to with wp label

wp label = waypoint label: http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?r=esp.ca033.

It was a trigger for Si ;)

N-IV will come soon!

I'm looking forward to get it :)
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on March 08, 2017, 02:25:53 pm

Should we draft another tier 4 or tier 5 system for these roads one day?

Some are already drafted as espa or eursf system routes. If I'm not mistaken, Si's rule was:
- blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1
- orange signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2
- red signed highways: espn - tier 4

What I would do if I had to classify the most relevant Spanish roads into Travel Mapping would be:

blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1, Autopistas/Autovías maintained by the Red de Carreteras del Estado in most of the country (Central Spanish Government), that would mean leaving there ONLY the motorways starting with A- or AP- (and that doesn't include some autonomical motorways that use the A- as well, like the A-321) AND the urban motorways (the ones with prefixes for the city they're serving name), as they are also maintained by the central Spanish government.

blue/orange/green signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2, autonomical motorways, maintained by the diferent Autonomous Communities. It would only cover actual motorway stretches, as most autonomical motorways continue as regular roads without changing the numbering. You could also add the non-motorway stretches for urban roads (like the ones we were talking above), as though being maintained by the central government, they aren't motorways so they shouldn't be in espa.

orange/green/red/blue/etc. signed roads: espaua (or whatever,  they're autonomical first class roads) - tier 2-3-4, autonomical main roads, from the width of six-lane dual-carriageway motorways to one lane non divided roads with the same wide as a national road (that means 3-3.5 meter lanes and 1-1.5 meter shoulders when possible, being autonomical doesn't mean they're secondary), as most of the ones converted to motorways are only partly, and they continue as regular highways. The colors of their shields, prefixes and that stuff vary from community to community, though I can help you with them and there are road catalogs for every community listing all their roads according to their importance, so you could see which autonomical roads should be here and which not. If using this classification criteria, autonomical motorways would be in both espaua and eursf. Here's where the road you were asking (A-1051) would be added.

- red signed highways: espn - tier 4 National roads, always maintained by the central government, remember that sometimes red doesn't mean national (see C-XX in Catalonia).

THEN, if you really wanted, as there are A LOT and would be a tedious task recovering all of them:
orange/green/red/yellow/etc. signed roads: espaub (or whatever,  they're autonomical second class roads) - tier 4-5, roads maintained by autonomous communities for serving medium-haul routes between cities, towns and villages, and not as wide as the first class ones.

And then there are two more least important classes of roads (Third class autonomicals and provincials), though I don't feel they need to be added as they only serve short routes between villages and the provincial ones may even lack markings hahaha

Greetings!
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on March 08, 2017, 07:32:44 pm
blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1, Autopistas/Autovías maintained by the Red de Carreteras del Estado in most of the country (Central Spanish Government), that would mean leaving there ONLY the motorways starting with A- or AP- (and that doesn't include some autonomical motorways that use the A- as well, like the A-321) AND the urban motorways (the ones with prefixes for the city they're serving name), as they are also maintained by the central Spanish government.

blue/orange/green signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2, autonomical motorways, maintained by the diferent Autonomous Communities.
How do you tell apart a blue signed autonomous community motorway from a blue signed national motorway?

It's a lot more reasonable with red cartouches to keep it to just Ns and exclude the Cs, but with blue cartouches there's a wealth of prefixes for both your proposed systems, some of which overlap - how is the average traveller to know which system to look at to find the route?

As for freeway standards, the A660 in France has roundabouts and is partially single carriageway, several motorways in the UK are substandard, etc, etc. And to over-complicate things because of a very small amount of the kilometrage is just nonsense.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 09, 2017, 12:30:09 pm
how is the average traveller to know which system to look at to find the route?

I never select routes by system but by region. I even think that only having A/AP in espa system would be easier to understand than having B, C etc. in espa too.

As for freeway standards, the A660 in France has roundabouts and is partially single carriageway, several motorways in the UK are substandard, etc, etc. And to over-complicate things because of a very small amount of the kilometrage is just nonsense.

German A60, A62 and A64 do partially have two-way traffic. They are signed as "Kraftfahrstraße" ("happy car sign") instead of "Autobahn". They are dedicated as Autobahn though. So what...

I don't ask to do it somehow or other but just ask for a rule.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on March 09, 2017, 02:11:41 pm
blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1, Autopistas/Autovías maintained by the Red de Carreteras del Estado in most of the country (Central Spanish Government), that would mean leaving there ONLY the motorways starting with A- or AP- (and that doesn't include some autonomical motorways that use the A- as well, like the A-321) AND the urban motorways (the ones with prefixes for the city they're serving name), as they are also maintained by the central Spanish government.

blue/orange/green signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2, autonomical motorways, maintained by the diferent Autonomous Communities.
How do you tell apart a blue signed autonomous community motorway from a blue signed national motorway?

It's a lot more reasonable with red cartouches to keep it to just Ns and exclude the Cs, but with blue cartouches there's a wealth of prefixes for both your proposed systems, some of which overlap - how is the average traveller to know which system to look at to find the route?

Well, with blue there wouldn't be overlapping. Simply, all roads with blue shields and A/AP-X or A/AP-XX format, along with the urban ones would go to espa.
The rest of blue ones have either different prefixes or more numbers.

As for freeway standards, the A660 in France has roundabouts and is partially single carriageway, several motorways in the UK are substandard, etc, etc. And to over-complicate things because of a very small amount of the kilometrage is just nonsense.

It's not a very small amount of kilometrage though, for example, one road which is one part motorway and other regular road, the autonomical motorway Ma-19, in my island, has only 27 kilometers of motorway from 60 in total. Or the Valencian one CV-35, which has only 60 km of  motorway out of 125, there are loads of examples.

Maybe what I suggested is too much complicated, though I believe it would be nice that if you add first class autonomical roads, find them in a separated system.

Have a nice day!
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 12, 2017, 08:58:49 am
I've submitted pull requests for N500+ and N600+. I'll continue with N100.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 12, 2017, 09:50:28 am
There are two N-636 segments. The Formento list indicates only the short (370m) section at Santander airport. The Formento map has also excluded the 2nd section between AP-8 and AP-1. Wikipedia (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Carreteras_Nacionales_de_España) lists the 1st one only but the specific article (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-636) mentions both:

Quote
* La primera comunica la autovía de acceso a Santander S-10 con el Aeropuerto de Santander. Esta carretera es de doble sentido y un carril para cada sentido de circulación y su longitud es de aproximadamente 1 km.
* La segunda corresponde a la carretera de Beasain a Durango por Kanpazar, perteneciente a la red de Interés Preferente del País Vasco y gestionada por la Diputación Foral de Bizkaia y la Diputación Foral de Gipuzkoa en sus respectivos territorios.

If I get it right, the 2nd one is not a national road but managed by Basque County?
However, the milestones look similar (GSV (https://www.google.es/maps/@43.1279072,-2.5558374,3a,15y,310.22h,83.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s97vB0vp3xVievMMfB-Bn4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)). GM indicates N-636 from AP-8 to AP-1, OSM indicates the last segment up to AP-1 "GI-632".

It has partially motorway standard (opened in 2009 and 2016). If it's not a national road, we could draft it for espa or eursf.


The northern Bilbao motorway bypass - N-637 - is also not on the Formento list but paritally on their map. The wikipedia does not list it but there's a specific article (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-637). No info about management et cetera.

I couldn't find milestones but it's signed like espn routes (GSV (https://www.google.es/maps/@43.2884748,-2.9407249,3a,75y,127.4h,100.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2pXywWR2g7tVCDWaEBpDTQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)).


I've drafted the short N-636 and N-637 but not (yet) the long N-636 route. Should I it too? Where should I put these routes?


Edit: N-638, N622 north of Vitoria, N-102 and N-104 are similar...
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on March 13, 2017, 12:24:37 pm
There are two N-636 segments. The Formento list indicates only the short (370m) section at Santander airport. The Formento map has also excluded the 2nd section between AP-8 and AP-1. Wikipedia (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Carreteras_Nacionales_de_España) lists the 1st one only but the specific article (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-636) mentions both:

Quote
* La primera comunica la autovía de acceso a Santander S-10 con el Aeropuerto de Santander. Esta carretera es de doble sentido y un carril para cada sentido de circulación y su longitud es de aproximadamente 1 km.
* La segunda corresponde a la carretera de Beasain a Durango por Kanpazar, perteneciente a la red de Interés Preferente del País Vasco y gestionada por la Diputación Foral de Bizkaia y la Diputación Foral de Gipuzkoa en sus respectivos territorios.

If I get it right, the 2nd one is not a national road but managed by Basque County?
However, the milestones look similar (GSV (https://www.google.es/maps/@43.1279072,-2.5558374,3a,15y,310.22h,83.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s97vB0vp3xVievMMfB-Bn4g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)). GM indicates N-636 from AP-8 to AP-1, OSM indicates the last segment up to AP-1 "GI-632".

It has partially motorway standard (opened in 2009 and 2016). If it's not a national road, we could draft it for espa or eursf.

Ok, it's a bit hard to explain ::) I didn't tell about this before in order to make things easier, but I knew I would have to soon or after. I told you that national roads and motorways from the State Road Network are managed by the central government (Ministerio de Fomento) in all Spain. Well, that's partly true, because that doesn't happen in Navarre and the Basque Country, as they're comunidades forales (Chartered communities). That means they have some privileges (coming from the medieval era), and one of those privileges is that all the roads in their territories belong to and are managed by them. That's why the Basque country still used the old denomination for motorways made over national roads for a long time, or why the Basque Country and Navarre networks are so different from the rest of Spain. What probably happened is that the one in Santander was the first N-636, and then the Basques numbered one of their roads as N-636 too as they use the N- denomination for their first class roads. Although it has a part being a dual carriageway, I would add it to the espn, as there's no sign of "autovía", and the road specs aren't the required for Spanish motorways.

The N-637 is also not signed in Fomento because of the mentioned above, though it's still a National road, the same with N-638, 622, 102...

Sorry for the delay ^^b
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 13, 2017, 04:35:14 pm
Ok, I think these are national highways managed by the regions but signed as national highways. That means, we should draft it for espn because we usually draft routes like they are signed. We shouldn't rely on the Formento document.

btw: N102-N122 are in.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on March 14, 2017, 03:27:19 pm
Ok, I think these are national highways managed by the regions but signed as national highways. That means, we should draft it for espn because we usually draft routes like they are signed. We shouldn't rely on the Formento document.

btw: N102-N122 are in.
Message edited.

Here's N-IV:

1 - The first stretch I found if starting from Madrid is this bypassed one in Dosbarrios, Castile-La Mancha. Starts at A-4 exit 69 (https://goo.gl/maps/CVSunnnQgHE2) , and after a while, this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/pYEYs6ZEgMN2) tells us this is N-IV. After crossing Dosbarrios, it continues as A-4 service road to merge in exit 72  (https://goo.gl/maps/UjWdbmibFzF2). A pair of signs before that:
https://goo.gl/maps/aaYicAzVryj (https://goo.gl/maps/aaYicAzVryj) (though wrongly colored haha)

2 - This other one starts at exit 83 (https://goo.gl/maps/eHBAupQSMys), here's a kilometer sign along with a milestone (https://goo.gl/maps/51qzQ39Zr6N2), then goes through La Guardia for ending into the A-4 here (https://goo.gl/maps/nPS8ovdCeuB2).

3 - Next one starts at A-4 exit 144 (https://goo.gl/maps/WgtiSA82QHB2), we found a N-IV sign a

bit after https://goo.gl/maps/j91RE4SP4nx, then enters into Villarta de San Juan, where crosses with CM-4126, and ends in exit 149 (https://goo.gl/maps/RyTTDmqFMZR2), leaving another sign before (https://goo.gl/maps/Khg1qWW4S6x).

4 - This one, which was kept because it passes through the pass of Despeñaperros (the traffic jams that were formed here before the building of the motorway are still remembered, and well, there were even traffic jams even in the motorway before updating it with bridges and tunnels hahaha) and is numbered as N-IVa. It starts at the merge here  (https://goo.gl/maps/QDrRpKJ3LU12) (a little bit
further, exit 243 connects the other way  (https://goo.gl/maps/t4i2ev35V2s)), passes through Venta de Cárdenas and then under the motorway. After a while, it leaves Castile-La Mancha to enter Andalusia (https://goo.gl/maps/RzHrt62yJxr) . In this stretch you can see some kilometer signs saying A-4 as one of the motorway carriageways used to go through here (as it was
built over the old national road), but when new tunnels and bridges were built to avoid the curvy stretches, this stretch returned to the N-IV. Actually. you can even see in Google Maps the other carriageway no longer used because of the same reason to the right of the N-IVa. After some tunnels and loads of curves, it interchanges with A-4 in its exit 250 (both ways: https://goo.gl/maps/2K9rNeoSfVC2 (https://goo.gl/maps/2K9rNeoSfVC2), https://goo.gl/maps/WP8po76UTYR2 (https://goo.gl/maps/WP8po76UTYR2)), passes under it several times and finally ends, giving access to Santa Elena, in the A-4 exit 257 (https://goo.gl/maps/7DmuoRG2T3C2).

5 - This stretch starts in a roundabout with A-4 exit 292 and A-44 exit 0 (https://goo.gl/maps/y6mQwdTHYPm), here's a sign just before it. Then goes through a stretch wronlgy labeled in GMas N-323 to share itinerary with it after a roundabout by passing the city of Bailén, then separating with it (https://goo.gl/maps/7Cr6FavDV5T2), to merge with the A-4 (exit 299 (https://goo.gl/maps/RmSthsCcaew))  just after this kilometer sign (https://goo.gl/maps/yWGLYqHuUhx).

6 - The next part found starts at this roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/gTEKNQVB25r), and is part of N-IV as this milepost (https://goo.gl/maps/aWD2TKnC3bx) tells us later. Although listed in that milepost as N-IV, it's actually N-IVa, as direction signs show:
https://goo.gl/maps/UrwY5ydDu842 (https://goo.gl/maps/UrwY5ydDu842)
https://goo.gl/maps/TUqVha6UDPM2 (https://goo.gl/maps/TUqVha6UDPM2)

After a bit, the road interchanges with the autonomical road A-306, gives access to El Carpio and ends in exit 377 of the A-4 (https://goo.gl/maps/7enSQBazXVq). Here a kilometer sign (https://goo.gl/maps/WTMZDZR4nsw) just before it.

7 - This one starts at exit 383 (https://goo.gl/maps/yqugYBcxL7H2), connects with CO-3105, crosses Alcolea and enters the city of Córdoba interchanging with N-432 to end in exit 401 (https://goo.gl/maps/KSvSFhdS7Qo). Here's a sign (https://goo.gl/maps/bao4XCyv1FM2) in a roundabout just before it.

8 - The next one starts at the merge here into the A-4 (https://goo.gl/maps/DQF6fangB7N2). Here's a kilometer sign  (https://goo.gl/maps/ZRRfRN5gsWU2)a bit before. It crosses Aldea Quintana (crossing with A-3052), El Quintanar, El Arrecife and La Carlota to end in A-4 exit 434 (https://goo.gl/maps/6jWeJyNz79q).

9 - This other stretch starts at exit 450 (https://goo.gl/maps/XiZbWkgUzoq), and is N-IVa according to the sign. After entering Écija, ends in exit 455 (https://goo.gl/maps/8JQeTpQgSCs)

10 - This section begins in a roundabout in the outskirts of Seville (here's a sign when coming from it (https://goo.gl/maps/duygSWiGEop)), gives access to Dos Hermanas, crosses with SE-3205 and interchanges with AP-4 and A-4, as the later ends and merges into the AP-4, to make N-IV the most popular non-tolled route. BTW, it's wrongly labeled as CA-31 too, though CA-31 is a 2 kilometer only route near Cádiz, so it's a GM mistake. Then it bypasses Los Palacios y Villafranca, gives access to Guadalema de los Quinteros, interchanges with the Andalusian road A-394, crosses with A-371, after it goes through El Cuervo and becomes the A-4 (https://goo.gl/maps/AtBTCyBUQGT2) when approaching Jerez (that's where the sherry wine comes haha)

11 - This one, signed as N-IVa, crosses the city of Jerez. Starting at [img=https://goo.gl/maps/5PpB2KLwnVF2]http://this roundabout[/img], crosses with A-2000 and A-480 atuonomicals, to finish in exit 645 (https://goo.gl/maps/vZV35wB6fGm)


12 - This stretch, signed at the beginning as N-IV and after as N-IVa, starts at this roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/R2uDfuGijp62) with CA-31, crosses with A-491 and El Puerto de Santa María to end in this roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/PrHjCukyVUE2). It's still signed as going through the river in the other way (https://goo.gl/maps/HWCwd9mFKh62), though I haven't seen any sign after this roundabout. The rest of the stretch, though labeled as N-IVa in GM, is actually CA-32.

That's all!

Next one will be N-V!
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 15, 2017, 03:45:39 pm
N-IV done:

1: NIVDos
2: NIVGua
3: NIVVil
4: NIVaEle
5: NIVBai
6: NIVaCar
7: NIVCor
8: NIVa
9: You've not posted any evidence that it's signed and it's not indicated on GM/OSM
10: NIV
11: NIVJer
12: NIVPue

N100+ done, N636 done :)
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 19, 2017, 05:50:16 pm
N204-N362 done. I'll continue with N-VI.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on March 19, 2017, 08:21:04 pm
N351 ends at the ESP/GIB border.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@36.1560832,-5.3508479,3a,51.3y,103.02h,101.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHqeRtNClTGuZp53xPCsfjw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 21, 2017, 09:26:57 am
Ok, I've completed drafting espn and put it to preview (with Jim's next site update).

My notes: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/ESP/espn/README.md.

I didn't find a solution for these routes:
- N301 route from north of Murcia to Cartagena is not clear, not drafted for HB
- N/N502/N502a routing in Talavera de la Reina is not clear to me; only `N502` bypass drafted

@Pepe, it would be great of you could try to figure out these issues.
In addition, please check if I didn't miss any signed route. I think it's easier to find "unintentional gaps" because all routes can be viewed on the map now.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on March 21, 2017, 05:05:35 pm
Ok, I've completed drafting espn and put it to preview (with Jim's next site update).

My notes: https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/blob/master/hwy_data/ESP/espn/README.md.
Lots and lots of thanks! Very good job :)

I didn't find a solution for these routes:
- N301 route from north of Murcia to Cartagena is not clear, not drafted for HB
What I found:
-A stretch (signed both as N-301 and N-301a, don't really now which is it actually) starting at this roundabout  (https://goo.gl/maps/Za1y9RYTnT32),  crossing El Albujón, RM-602,  Miranda and ending in a roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/XC9RQJH7akm) in Cartagena city centre (here's a sign from one of the other streets (https://goo.gl/maps/1L8sa1X7qxk) of the roundabout)
-This section, starts at this roundabout with A-30 (https://goo.gl/maps/cBXsVP66VF92) , crosses El Palmar, MU-30 and enters Murcia to end in this crossing (https://goo.gl/maps/FjGoBrFzeBL2) (seen from the side).

-The third stretch starts at this roundabout at the outskirts of Murcia (https://goo.gl/maps/MCKstcgxyVD2), as this sign from another street in that roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/hkNieZDW5w62) shows. After crossing with A-7, bypasses Molina del Segura (Where it crosses with N-344) to end in A-30 (https://goo.gl/maps/jT5Wi49omf72). Here's a confirmation sign later (https://goo.gl/maps/C2cRCYndL4z), that though covered with leaves, leaves no doubt this is a national road (as we see the red shield between the leaves).

- N/N502/N502a routing in Talavera de la Reina is not clear to me; only `N502` bypass drafted
It's late here, and I must get up very early tomorrow, so tomorrow afternoon I'll check and edit this.

@Pepe, it would be great of you could try to figure out these issues.
In addition, please check if I didn't miss any signed route. I think it's easier to find "unintentional gaps" because all routes can be viewed on the map now.
Well done! You even done the N-V and N-VI stretches (which is nice, as I've clinched part of the N-VI and N-120 by walking in the St James Way hahaha), so I believe it isn't necessary now to search myself for N-V and N-VI.
The map is very complete, the only gap I found so far is N-340 in Játiva/Xàtiva, in the Province of Valencia. If there's any other I missed, I'll tell you ASAP!

Have a wonderful day!
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 22, 2017, 08:52:23 am
Lots and lots of thanks! Very good job :)

You're welcome!

N-301 is done.

You even done the N-V and N-VI stretches (which is nice, as I've clinched part of the N-VI and N-120 by walking in the St James Way hahaha), so I believe it isn't necessary now to search myself for N-V and N-VI.

N-VI/N-651 @Betanzos was odd. Would be great if you could double-check it.

The map is very complete, the only gap I found so far is N-340 in Játiva/Xàtiva, in the Province of Valencia.

I don't remember exactly but I think I couldn't find any evidence that it's signed as N340. It's a regional road according to OSM.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on March 22, 2017, 03:39:24 pm
- N/N502/N502a routing in Talavera de la Reina is not clear to me; only `N502` bypass drafted
It's late here, and I must get up very early tomorrow, so tomorrow afternoon I'll check and edit this.
Ok, it seems the road goes like as seen in this quick map I've done:
(http://i.imgur.com/ICl5RAa.png)
Maybe, as the bypass is quite new, there are some signs still posting N-502 without the a in the town, though where the road divides (roundabouts 1 and 2), both N-502 and N-502a are clearly signed, leaving no doubt to us:
·Roundabout 1:
-N-502:
https://goo.gl/maps/ok4W4rtGQeF2 (https://goo.gl/maps/ok4W4rtGQeF2)
https://goo.gl/maps/HYwHPH8jXf82 (https://goo.gl/maps/HYwHPH8jXf82)
-N-502a:
https://goo.gl/maps/ZUfEPSSAQWJ2 (https://goo.gl/maps/ZUfEPSSAQWJ2)
·Roundabout 2:
-N-502:
https://goo.gl/maps/B8kSNfDW4gC2 (https://goo.gl/maps/B8kSNfDW4gC2)
-N-502a:
https://goo.gl/maps/EMacX9rfLjG2 (https://goo.gl/maps/EMacX9rfLjG2)

N-VI/N-651 @Betanzos was odd. Would be great if you could double-check it.
What seems to me is that the uppermost N-VI stretch (the one which crosses with N-651) is N-VIa actually, as there's a bypass south of it clearly signed as N-VI, while there's no numeration for the other in the two divisons before the town:
https://goo.gl/maps/dw9uiS1zFYL2 (https://goo.gl/maps/dw9uiS1zFYL2)
https://goo.gl/maps/hoHNUVsbhjL2 (https://goo.gl/maps/hoHNUVsbhjL2)

I also saw signage telling the part going through Betanzos as N-VI, so what I think is that at first the road went through Betanzos, and when they built the bypass didn't bothered to add an a to the signage. Also, I believe that for avoiding traffic following N-VI signs entering the town, they simply didn't put N-VIa in the signs (or maybe they even forgot, seems believable to me here in Spain!). Anyway, then, theorically the one crossing with N-651 and through Betanzos is N-VIa and the bypass is N-VI. As they're both signed as N-VI, add them as you think would be better hahaha

I don't remember exactly but I think I couldn't find any evidence that it's signed as N340. It's a regional road according to OSM.
/maps/oWW1STcN1Uy
Yeah, you're right. It used to be part of the N-340 (and you can even still see signs) but sometime between 2012 and 2016 the stretch looks to be transferred to the Valencian administration, which has renumbered it as three different roads. As the last time I passed there that was still N-340, I thought it kept being it!

Well done!
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: cinx on March 22, 2017, 03:47:58 pm
Why isn't the N443/CA-36 on the list?
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 22, 2017, 05:06:59 pm
@Pepe: Thanks for N-502/N-502a but what's about N-Va? GM indicates N-Va from N-502a eastwards but OSM partially indicates N-Va only which looks like it might be rededicated meanwhile. Any info?
Your N-VI/N-651 links are broken but if I got you right, I should keep it like it's drafted, shouldn't I?

Why isn't the N443/CA-36 on the list?

N-443 is not signed but CA-36: http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=1951.msg5478#msg5478. I've only drafted espn system. Si maintains Spain.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on March 25, 2017, 07:20:06 am
@Pepe: Thanks for N-502/N-502a but what's about N-Va? GM indicates N-Va from N-502a eastwards but OSM partially indicates N-Va only which looks like it might be rededicated meanwhile. Any info?
Well, there N-Va shares itinerary with N-502a when entering Talavera, then with N-502 when N-502a ends on it and finally separes from them a while later to merge into the A-5. Although that, I haven't seen signs of it (probably replaced with the ones indicating the A-5), so draft it if you want.

Your N-VI/N-651 links are broken but if I got you right, I should keep it like it's drafted, shouldn't I?
Links fixed. Yeah, now it's drafted correctly.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on March 26, 2017, 03:13:50 am
Ok, thanks. N-502a will be submitted soon. I won't add the unsigned N-Va in Talavera de la Reina.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on April 26, 2017, 03:22:55 pm
16 - N-II reappears in this roundabout (https://goo.gl/maps/oreY9UzxYhz) in a suburb of Barcelona called Martorell, continues through a industrial area and the Barcelonese conurbations of Sant Andreu de la Barca and Pallejà, to merge with the N-340 (https://goo.gl/maps/UUY9Zgp5EBQ2) before Can Ros. Here a sign in the opposite direction (https://goo.gl/maps/JrT3zDK9oVr) of the interchange.

16: NIIAnd

It's already signed west of Martorell from the A2 exit near the SEAT plant. And it's NIIa. The rest of the AP7 feeder seems to be unsigned.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on June 28, 2017, 06:56:15 pm
N1 routes

(Briviesca) - fine
(Aranda de Duero) - point needed at northern end of the bypass for GSJ
(Beasain) - should end at NC/PV border, end-on with A1?
(Boceguillas) - fine
(Buitrago del Lozoya) - fine
(Gumiel de Izán) - fine
(Lerma) - fine
(La Puebla de Arganzón) - fine
(Quintanilla de la Mata) - fine
(Robregordo) - fine
(Venturada) - fine
NIa - fine
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on June 28, 2017, 07:53:07 pm
N2 routes

NII (Fraga) - fine
NII (Arcos de Jalón) - fine
NII (Cervera) - fine
NII (Esteras de Medinaceli) - fine
NII (Figueres) - NIIa_FigX are surely N/S rather than E/W?
NII (Santa María de Huerta) - perhaps a point for SOP3002?
NII (Mataró) - fine
NII (La Muela) - fine
NII (Saúca) - fine
NII (Torremocha del Campo) - fine
NII (Zaragoza) - fine
NIIa (Calatayud) - fine
NIIa (La Almunia de Doña Godina) - fine
NIIa (San Andrés de la Barca) - fine
NIIa (Ariza) - fine
NIIa (Figueres) - NII_X should be N/S rather than E/W?
NIIa (Girona) - NII_X should be N/S rather than E/W?
NIIa (Igualada) - fine
NIIz (Montserrat Parc) - a point for the actual settlement of Montserrat Parc?
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on June 29, 2017, 03:47:36 am
NIII (Minglanilla) - N330_E -> N330_N
NIII (Arganda del Rey) - fine
NIII (Buñol) - fine
NIII (Chiva) - fine
NIII (Montalbo) - fine
NIII (Tarancón) - fine
NIII (Villares del Saz) - fine
NIV (Las Cabezas de San Juan) - PalX -> Pal_X
NIV (Bailén) - fine
NIV (Córdoba) - fine
NIV (Dosbarrios) - fine
NIV (La Guardia) - fine
NIV (Jerez de la Frontera) - fine
NIV (El Puerto de Santa María) - fine
NIV (Villarta de San Juan) - fine
NIVa (La Carlota) - fine
NIVa (El Carpio)    - fine
NIVa (Santa Elena) - fine
NV (Almaraz) - XX95 -> CC95?
NV (Mérida) - fine
NV (Miajadas) - fine
NV (Navalmoral de la Mata) - fine
NV (Talavera la Real) - fine
NV (Trujillo) - fine
NVa (Valmojado) - fine
NVa (Lagartera) - fine
NVI (Lugo) - A6(333) -> LE6424 or EnlPra; A6(549) -> AC151/230
NVI (El Espinar) - fine
NVI (Rueda) - fine
NVI (Tordesillas) - fine
NVIa (Betanzos) - fine

fairly meaningless point - shouldn't these roads radiate from Madrid, rather than head south/east? NV and NVI's A5 and A6 exit numbers decrease as you head up the list. The system isn't a grid.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on June 29, 2017, 09:49:21 am
N102 - fine
N104 - fine
N110 - fine
N110a - fine
N111 ((Main)) - N111a_CarN/S -> shouldn't it be Gar?
N111 (Logroño) - fine
N111 (Viana) - fine
N111a (Piqueras) - is Piq necessary in the suffixes? N111_N and N111_S are surely sufficient and more elegant?
N111a (Garray) - ditto with Car (which should surely be Gar?)
N111a (Logroño) - fine
N111a (Soria) - fine
N113 - fine
N120 (Burgos) - GorW -> Gor_W; GorE -> Gor_E; add point for BU-30 exit 11
N120 (Ourense) - fine
N120a (Monforte de Lemos) - fine
N120a (Astorga) - fine
N120a (Santo Domingo de la Calzada) - fine
N121 - fine
N121a - fine
N121b - fine
N121c - fine
N122 (Soria) - QuiOW -> QuiO_W; QuiOE -> QuiO_E; QuiAW -> QuiA_W; QuiAE -> QuiA_E; LanW -> Lan_W; LanE -> Lan_E;
N122 (Zamora) - fine
N122a (La Cistérniga) - fine
N122a (San Martín del Pedroso) - fine
N123 - fine
N123a - fine
N124 - fine
N125 - fine
N126 - fine
N135 - fine
N141 - fine
N145 - fine
N150 - fine
N152 - fine
N154 - wrong border point (needs to meet FRA N20)
N156 - fine
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on June 29, 2017, 12:27:50 pm
Thanks for the review. I have not yet made my "internal" review... Of course, I'll do the modifications but I'm surprised that you've chosen these system for a review. I have many other system which are already ready for a peer-review.

I think the best review is adding another system and that's what would happen if we would add the tier 5 systems...

Is there any specific reason for your hurry, e.g. the region split action?
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on June 29, 2017, 01:57:09 pm
Thanks for the review. I have not yet made my "internal" review... Of course, I'll do the modifications but I'm surprised that you've chosen these system for a review.
Well now you know the niggles I have, that internal review should be easier! I expect a very boring peer review when you are done -
 more so than this yawn fest of most routes being fine!  ;)
Quote
I have many other system which are already ready for a peer-review.
True - what one would you like? Austria or Croatia? I'm going to leave off the tier-5 systems while there's tier-4. Especially as most of them aren't small (unlike nlds)
Quote
I think the best review is adding another system and that's what would happen if we would add the tier 5 systems...
Indeed! It also means that deub is undergoing that review, so I'll hold off reviewing it for now.
Quote
Is there any specific reason for your hurry, e.g. the region split action?
The region-split action sparked my interest, plus I started outlining espct with a view to make a good start on the various tier-5 systems this summer, given the call for them.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on June 29, 2017, 03:00:25 pm
I expect a very boring peer review when you are done - more so than this yawn fest of most routes being fine!  ;)

:)

Quote
what one would you like? Austria or Croatia?

About 1/3 of swel is already done. Afterwards Croatia and Austria.

Quote
It also means that deub is undergoing that review

Exactly :)
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on July 18, 2017, 01:49:57 pm
N1 routes

(Beasain) - should end at NC/PV border, end-on with A1?

Not sure what you mean. Maybe moving the end of A1 to NC/PV border too? If so, it's your region, your decision. Change it if you want.


btw: All espn modifications must be done twice, to espn and espnb wpt files because of the split action. Do you wanna review the entire espn system and active it before (or with) activating the region split? It's fine with me but if not, I'd prefer to make the review modifications afterwards when one only wpt file will exist. For now, I'll wait with further review modifications.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on July 19, 2017, 07:28:33 am
Not sure what you mean. Maybe moving the end of A1 to NC/PV border too?
The A1 already ends there - that's where the end of the file was and is.
Quote
btw: All espn modifications must be done twice, to espn and espnb wpt files because of the split action. Do you wanna review the entire espn system and active it before (or with) activating the region split? It's fine with me but if not, I'd prefer to make the review modifications afterwards when one only wpt file will exist. For now, I'll wait with further review modifications.
I am planning to (DEU split readiness depending) do them at the same time. I'll note changes you make in espn and make them in espnb.
Title: Re: Spain
Post by: michih on July 29, 2017, 10:57:51 am
blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1, Autopistas/Autovías maintained by the Red de Carreteras del Estado in most of the country (Central Spanish Government), that would mean leaving there ONLY the motorways starting with A- or AP- (and that doesn't include some autonomical motorways that use the A- as well, like the A-321) AND the urban motorways (the ones with prefixes for the city they're serving name), as they are also maintained by the central Spanish government.

blue/orange/green signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2, autonomical motorways, maintained by the diferent Autonomous Communities.
How do you tell apart a blue signed autonomous community motorway from a blue signed national motorway?

It's a lot more reasonable with red cartouches to keep it to just Ns and exclude the Cs, but with blue cartouches there's a wealth of prefixes for both your proposed systems, some of which overlap - how is the average traveller to know which system to look at to find the route?

As for freeway standards, the A660 in France has roundabouts and is partially single carriageway, several motorways in the UK are substandard, etc, etc. And to over-complicate things because of a very small amount of the kilometrage is just nonsense.

How do we wanna draft CA-36 in Cadiz?
It's indicated with blue CA-36 signs all the way between CA33 and CA35 but it's not a divided highway on the bridge and west of the bridge. The beginning of Autovia sign is east of the bridge.
OSM indicates CA36 from here to the east and N443 for the west section but I couldn't find any N443 sign on GSV (only on AP4 east of CA34). GM indicates CA36 all the way.
CA33 wp label is 'N443' (no evidence) and CA36 on CA35. In addition, CA32 wp with AP4 is called 'AP4/N443'?!?

Meanwhile, we've decided to split the country into regions and I thought a lot about how to draft Spanish routes when I was traveling Spain and Portugal earlier this year.

In addition to the issues mentioned above, I saw these problems:

My idea of how to categorize the routes:

Tier 1: A1-A91 inkl. AP routes but without (on the contrary to Pepe's suggestion (http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=1951.msg5489#msg5489)) urban motorways which are also maintained by Spanish government

Tier 4: Nx as-is

Tier 5:
- Regional motorways (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autopistas_y_autov%C3%ADas_de_Espa%C3%B1a#Autopistas.2C_autov.C3.ADas_y_carreteras_de_doble_calzada_auton.C3.B3micas)
- Urban motorways (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autopistas_y_autov%C3%ADas_de_Espa%C3%B1a#Autopistas.2C_autov.C3.ADas_y_multicarril_en_entorno_urbano)
- Red Regional + Red (Inter)Comarcal / Red Regional o Primaria / Red de Primer Nivel / Red Primaria Básica + Red Primaria Complementaria / ... depending on the region (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_de_carreteras_de_Espa%C3%B1a)

Tier 2: Remaining freeways (or motorway-like roads with minimum partially 2 carriageways and median?) of all colors (orange, yellow, green,...)
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on July 29, 2017, 01:38:04 pm
I'll note changes you make in espn and make them in espnb.

I had to think about it and don't think that it's a good idea.

It's your region, I've drafted espn system, you review espn now and you'll maintain espn in the future.
I think it would be less time-consuming for both of us, if you directly modify the wpts for espn and espnb with your review.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on October 07, 2017, 01:20:42 pm
All espn modifications must be done twice, to espn and espnb wpt files because of the split action. Do you wanna review the entire espn system and active it before (or with) activating the region split? It's fine with me but if not, I'd prefer to make the review modifications afterwards when one only wpt file will exist. For now, I'll wait with further review modifications.

@Si: espnb is gone. Do you wanna proceed reviewing Spain? Should I modify the "split" espn files or do you wanna do it?
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on October 11, 2017, 08:35:35 am
I'm just doing it. Just got the 3xx and 4xx routes left to do (though that's probably a majority of them).

One thing I've noticed is that there, like the Autovias Urbano, are urban routes that seem to be part of the national network, rather than managed by the autonomous communities. I don't want system proliferation so these ought to go into this system (at least for the time being).

I've looked at the Spanish Wikipedia listings for these Urban routes (on the list of Autopistas and Autovias), taken all routes with red cartouches on that list then checked GMSV to see whether they are signed as such. I have the following:
Title: Re: Spain
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on October 15, 2017, 02:22:15 pm
Sorry for the delay ^^b
My idea of how to categorize the routes:

Tier 1: A1-A91 inkl. AP routes but without (on the contrary to Pepe's suggestion (http://tm.teresco.org/forum/index.php?topic=1951.msg5489#msg5489)) urban motorways which are also maintained by Spanish government

Tier 4: Nx as-is

Tier 5:
- Regional motorways (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autopistas_y_autov%C3%ADas_de_Espa%C3%B1a#Autopistas.2C_autov.C3.ADas_y_carreteras_de_doble_calzada_auton.C3.B3micas)
- Urban motorways (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autopistas_y_autov%C3%ADas_de_Espa%C3%B1a#Autopistas.2C_autov.C3.ADas_y_multicarril_en_entorno_urbano)
- Red Regional + Red (Inter)Comarcal / Red Regional o Primaria / Red de Primer Nivel / Red Primaria Básica + Red Primaria Complementaria / ... depending on the region (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_de_carreteras_de_Espa%C3%B1a)

Tier 2: Remaining freeways (or motorway-like roads with minimum partially 2 carriageways and median?) of all colors (orange, yellow, green,...)

I think that's even a better option than mine, I usually overcomplicate things, sorry hahahha
I'd only change two things:
I wouldn't do a specific category for regional motorways, as they are at the same time first class regional roads (the last category you said on Tier 5) and many times the same road is one part motorway and one other big part first class regular regional road (take Ma-19 for example, it begins as a motorway with 8 lane sections and at km 26 turns into a first class regional road (with standards similar to national roads) and runs like that until its end in km 60) so we would have the same road divided in sections on diferent categories.
I wouldn't do too the last tier 2 roads as different colors are only for some regional ones (some regions use different colors between state freeways and autonomic ones) so as regional motorways they should be taken as first class regional roads.

I'm just doing it. Just got the 3xx and 4xx routes left to do (though that's probably a majority of them).

One thing I've noticed is that there, like the Autovias Urbano, are urban routes that seem to be part of the national network, rather than managed by the autonomous communities. I don't want system proliferation so these ought to go into this system (at least for the time being).

I've looked at the Spanish Wikipedia listings for these Urban routes (on the list of Autopistas and Autovias), taken all routes with red cartouches on that list then checked GMSV to see whether they are signed as such. I have the following:
  • A79 in Alicante
  • AC-10, AC-11 (the bit signed red not blue) in La Coruna
  • BA-20 in Badajoz
  • CC-11 in Caceres
  • LU-11 in Lugo
  • OU-11 in Orense
  • SA-11 and SA-20 in Salamanca
  • SC-11 in Santiago Compostela
  • SG-20 in Segovia
  • VA-20 in Valladolid
Yeah, all urban roads listed there are managed by the Red de Carreteras del Estado except the ones in Balearic and Canary islands. One thing to note is that some of them aren't motorways or even part of them is motorway standard and the other one is regular road, so be cautious and look GSV before deciding.

If you need any info about out our so complex system, I'll be glad to help you.
Thank you very much, have a nice day!
Title: Re: Spain
Post by: michih on October 15, 2017, 03:05:07 pm
I wouldn't do a specific category for regional motorways, as they are at the same time first class regional roads (the last category you said on Tier 5)

I didn't suggest a different category. I just said that all these routes should be tier 5.

However, Si has started drafting Ma routes and put them into a new "espib" system. I guess it will be part of a tier 5 system but I'm not sure.

If you need any info about out our so complex system, I'll be glad to help you.

There is a discussion about Spanish road signage on SSC for many years... :)
Title: Re: Spain
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on October 15, 2017, 04:19:27 pm
I didn't suggest a different category. I just said that all these routes should be tier 5.

However, Si has started drafting Ma routes and put them into a new "espib" system. I guess it will be part of a tier 5 system but I'm not sure.

Sorry for misunderstanding then, if any help is needed to look after first class regional roads, here I am!

BTW, I saw that finally we have as regions autonomous communities of Spain, and that's fantastic. I don't know if its definitive, but I believe that state managed A-XX motorways and national roads should stay in Spain region as they go across all the country, and also the autonomus city enclave of Melilla is missing. As I said, if it's still a work in progress, sorry hahaha
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on October 16, 2017, 04:54:52 am
the autonomus city enclave of Melilla is missing.

It's in: ESP-ML;Melilla;ESP;AFR;Autonomous City

But there is no espn route or anything else in HB right now.
Title: Re: Spain
Post by: si404 on October 18, 2017, 06:14:08 pm
many times the same road is one part motorway and one other big part first class regular regional road (take Ma-19 for example, it begins as a motorway with 8 lane sections and at km 26 turns into a first class regional road (with standards similar to national roads) and runs like that until its end in km 60) so we would have the same road divided in sections on diferent categories.
Ma-19's motorway section uses different colour shields - is it one road, or not?

And if we do that with Majorca do with do it with Castille and Leon, which gives their motorways an A prefix as well.
Quote
Yeah, all urban roads listed there are managed by the Red de Carreteras del Estado except the ones in Balearic and Canary islands. One thing to note is that some of them aren't motorways or even part of them is motorway standard and the other one is regular road, so be cautious and look GSV before deciding.
This was to add them to espn, not espa - their not being motorway (or rather not signed with blue cartouches) is the reason I listed them. They are in now.
Sorry for misunderstanding then, if any help is needed to look after first class regional roads, here I am!
Why can't they all do what La Rioja, Extramadura, etc do and use the number to say what tier they are at?

It also doesn't help that yellow and orange are close, especially when sun bleached and seen via not great Streetview images - like I found in the Balearics - is it just the two-digits that are the top tier, or is wikipedia right and various 4-digit roads are too?
Quote
BTW, I saw that finally we have as regions autonomous communities of Spain, and that's fantastic. I don't know if its definitive, but I believe that state managed A-XX motorways and national roads should stay in Spain region as they go across all the country
It doesn't work like that.

But there is no espn route or anything else in HB right now.
Spanish Wikipedia suggested that they were urban routes of the national system rather than Autonomous City Roads, but I couldn't confirm either way (no GMSV). Also the Me-NADOR is a bizarre route number!
Title: Re: Spain
Post by: peperodriguez2710 on October 19, 2017, 02:13:35 pm
Ma-19's motorway section uses different colour shields - is it one road, or not?
It's the same road, but the color changes when it isn't motorway standard, don't trust in the red shields seen in Google Maps, in actual signage it's blue when motorway and orange when not, as the other first class autonomic roads from Mallorca.

Quote
And if we do that with Majorca do with do it with Castille and Leon, which gives their motorways an A prefix as well.
Prefix changes so you could either treat (for example) CL-601 and A-601 as the same road or as different ones, do whatever you like but take in mind one is motorway and the other first class autonomic.

Quote
Why can't they all do what La Rioja, Extramadura, etc do and use the number to say what tier they are at?
It also doesn't help that yellow and orange are close, especially when sun bleached and seen via not great Streetview images - like I found in the Balearics - is it just the two-digits that are the top tier, or is wikipedia right and various 4-digit roads are too?
Politics. Each community follows their own numbering practices and laws, so... ;D ;D ;D Looks (and it is) crazy, but as I said I understand more or less how it works on each community (and Spanish is my mother tongue so I can look up their laws or road inventories if needed) so I can help you understand this mess hahah
It seems that what you said from wikipedia is right, but anyway I'll post what the local government says:

First class (they name them "basic first class" on the papers, motorway standard parts or dual carriageway parts; if regular road, first class national road-like. Blue and orange): Ma-1, Ma-11, Ma-12, Ma-13, Ma-13A (parallel to the motorway, from before the motorway stretch was built, serves towns and villages), Ma-14, Ma-15, Ma-19, Ma-20, Ma-30 and Ma-1110 (this later one has some old signs as yellow, but current regulations say it is orange). They link important places or main areas of the island.

Second class (they name them "first class regular roads". Orange): Ma-1A, Ma-1B, Ma-1C (This ones are stretches of Ma-1 crossing towns and villages which have been diverted, like happens with national roads, a letter is added), Ma-19A (the same as Ma-13A, this one has sections as first class and sections as second) Ma-2200, Ma-2220, Ma-3010, Ma-3011, Ma-3018, Ma-3020, Ma-3030, Ma-3232, Ma-3240, Ma-3301, Ma-3320, Ma-3340, Ma-3410, Ma-3431, Ma-3440, Ma-3450, Ma-3500, Ma-4010, Ma-4020, Ma-4023, Ma-4030, Ma-4040, Ma-5013, Ma-5017, Ma-5030, Ma-5040, Ma-5110, Ma-5120, Ma-6014 (only one part) and Ma-6020. They link towns and main villages, it's not uncommon to see them signed in yellow, specially if the signs are old, but according to regulations they should be orange.
Rest of numbered ones is third class (they name them secondary roads), which are narrower roads signed in yellow, linking smaller towns and villages. This includes the Ma-10, although being two number and the longest in the network it is yellow both on signs and papers.
And finally, the fourth class, which is local roads on the papers and aren't numbered.

I believe that we should do first class roads only, as the second class ones are a lot so I think we should stick to the most important ones and are all contained on that category.

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It doesn't work like that.
And how does it work then? When you split a region you cannot have roads running all along it? I think having to treat them as different roads with their .list names according to the community is pretty unconvenient but maybe it's the only way, idk

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Spanish Wikipedia suggested that they were urban routes of the national system rather than Autonomous City Roads, but I couldn't confirm either way (no GMSV). Also the Me-NADOR is a bizarre route number!
I didn't explain myself very well. They are managed by Fomento, yeah, I called them autonomous city roads because in Melilla they have the ML prefix, for example there's ML-102, ML-105, ML-300... In Ceuta there's national roads only so no worries.

Have a nice day
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on January 03, 2018, 10:01:30 am
I've now mapped out all the top tier autonomous networks, save for Galicia, which I can't find a list (or rather 4 lists) for.

Given I reviewed michih's draft when I chopped the routes, and then did further review with the tier 5 systems, I'm going to activate espn unless I hear any objections.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: michih on January 03, 2018, 11:29:20 am
Yes, I think espn can be activated, only some data errors must be checked (e.g. some SELFREFs).
I hope Pepe can find a reliable route list. What does "or rather 4 lists" mean?

btw: espib doesn't show up in the HB for any reason. I think Jim only commented out espcn yesterday....
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on January 03, 2018, 11:49:19 am
Yes, I think espn can be activated, only some data errors must be checked (e.g. some SELFREFs).
I shall check them.
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I hope Pepe can find a reliable route list. What does "or rather 4 lists" mean?
The roads are done by province (like the esppv system), rather than Autonomous Community.
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btw: espib doesn't show up in the HB for any reason. I think Jim only commented out espcn yesterday....
Indeed - there was an error with it, but it wasn't commented out. Anyway, I've fixed that error locally, so it will be fine tomorrow.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: Jim on January 03, 2018, 01:51:29 pm
btw: espib doesn't show up in the HB for any reason. I think Jim only commented out espcn yesterday....
Indeed - there was an error with it, but it wasn't commented out. Anyway, I've fixed that error locally, so it will be fine tomorrow.

I noticed the errors on that one later and forgot to commit/push the commented out version.  I'll just undo it in my local copy so it will be included in the next update.
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: cinx on January 13, 2018, 04:47:26 pm
Will the Canary Islands have more entries? For example Lanzarote has some short stretches of Autovia (LZ-2, LZ-3) and main roads (LZ-1, LZ-2, LZ-3)...
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: si404 on January 14, 2018, 11:34:27 am
Will the Canary Islands have more entries? For example Lanzarote has some short stretches of Autovia (LZ-2, LZ-3) and main roads (LZ-1, LZ-2, LZ-3)...
You mean
http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=km&u=&r=espcn.lz001
http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=km&u=&r=espcn.lz002
http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=km&u=&r=espcn.lz003 ?

All there already:
http://tm.teresco.org/hb/index.php?units=km&u=&sys=null&rg=ESP-CN

They are in the autonomous community system, are you saying they should be in other ones?
Title: Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
Post by: cinx on January 15, 2018, 04:51:22 pm
^^Hm, sorry about that. Somehow I didn't find them...