Author Topic: usanyp: New York Parkways  (Read 2074 times)

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Offline yakra

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usanyp: New York Parkways
« on: January 22, 2017, 01:32:25 pm »
Prior discussion...
On AARoads, mapcat & Duke87 nominated a few New York routes to consider adding to usasf.
I added the Cross County and Saw Mill Parkways, the latter of which needed immediate fixes, along with the pre-existing Henry Hudson Parkway.
From there, discussion moved on to the ideas of splitting New York Parkways off of usasf into their own system.
Si submitted a pull request to split usanyp out of usasf. It was nixed on the grounds that new routes could be developed in this system in devel status, with activated routes staying separate, in usasf.

What gets included?
Highways listed in Appendix B, pages "57-59" (59-61 if you prefer) of the 2014 Traffic Data Report (TDR). I'm including just the stuff listed, on (for the most part, all of) the corresponding reference routes.
These reference routes are listed in the shapefiles with a "PK909E" style GEORTE attribute (indicative of NYSDOT considering these part of a discrete group/system of Parkways), with the exception of the Garden State Parkway Connector. That's SR982L (note the 3rd digit of '2', instead of the usual 7, 8, or 9 for a parkway).
Quote from: vdeane
Of course, no two sources listing NY parkways are exactly the same, which makes things interesting.
( http://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17061.msg2113084#msg2113084 )
There's another list at "page 71" (page 75) of the NY Touring Route Book, which differs in that it doesn't list the Garden State Parkway Connector, and does list NY431. If I choose the list in the TDR as the definitive list for TM purposes, I feel less pressure to include the redundant NY431 route, and more justified including the Garden State Parkway Connector. (It's got the word Parkway in it. Most users will probably look for it in the Parkways system.)
Quote
There's also the question of what to do about parkways that are locally owned and don't have reference route numbers.
No reference # -> not on list -> not included in the system.

-----

Route-by-route comments...

909E - ny.baypkwy - Bay Parkway
The westernmost bits of "Bay Parkway" aren't part of reference route 909E, and thus not part of the parkway system, and were not included. Note @vdeane's comment on #514.

987H - ny.bearmtnpkwy - Bear Mountain Parkway
Should probably be listed as Bear Mountain State Parkway instead?

987H - ny.bearmtnpkwycro - Bear Mountain Parkway (Crompond)
Crompond is a census-designated place, but not an incorporated town or village.
If I choose "Carlton" and "Porter" for the Lake Ontario State Parkway Spur and Robert Moses State Parkway Spur (see below), "Yorktown" may be more appropriate here instead.

907E - ny.betstapkwy - Bethpage State Parkway
No comments here; straightforward enough.

907F - ny.bropelpkwy - Bronx-Pelham Parkway
907F - ny.pelpkwy - Pelham Parkway
Signed, and commonly known, as simply Pelham Parkway? Perhaps this should be changed to PelPkwy / Pelham Parkway.
I'd like to relabel NY US1 BosRd_S to reference Pelham Parkway, as something included in the HB, instead, but am holding off pending the final name of this route.

907J - ny.crobaypkwy - Cross Bay Parkway
No comments here; straightforward enough.

908B - ny.jacrobpkwy - Jackie Robinson Parkway
"One point per interchange" at the east end. :)

909C - ny.korwarpkwy - Korean War Veterans Parkway
Yes, the south end overlaps NY440 to the Outerbridge Crossing toll booths.
The north end is a bit wibbly-wobbly. Although the reference route follows Drumgoole Rd to end at Richmond Ave, Drumgoole is signed as itself and not as the Parkway on blade signs, and there's an END sign just before the merge with Drumgoole. I chose to end the route at the Drumgoole merge.

948A - ny.lakeontpkwyspr - Lake Ontario State Parkway Spur
1.) If you look at the system CSVs, you'll notice that "Spr" is included in the Route name, but not as a Banner. Perhaps my thinking is a throwback to the CHM era here: I'm taking the banner column literally; the idea is treating it as if it means "there will be a SPUR banner above this shield", and that the Shield Generator will eventually, in theory, generate something accordingly. So, I just included it in the route name. Then, I went and left out the Abbrev. "Hey, this is just the 'Lake Ontario State Parkway Spur', as NYSDOT calls it. And there's only one of them," my thinking went. If there's loud enough consensus that this is kinda wrong, I can change it round. Or another option that I rather like would be to just leave the "Spr" off completely, and have another segment of vanilla "Lake Ontario State Parkway", with an abbrev and a specifier in the City field, "Lakeside State Park", or "Carlton" or something. (Kinda like what I did with the cannss system, although that one doesn't have "spurs" as such.)
See also: Robert Moses State Parkway Spur
Discuss.
2.) Mainline LakeOntPkwy is reference route 947A. It should be truncated to end at this route, with the NY LakeOntPkwy NY18 PicRd segment being part of this route instead.

987A - ny.lakeweldr - Lake Welch Drive
I guess it's officially/internally the Lake Welch Parkway, but it's signed as Lake Welch Drive.

908C - ny.looppkwy - Loop Parkway
No comments here; straightforward enough.

908F - ny.mospkwy - Mosholu Parkway
Interesting case here. The SouBlvd BroRivPkwy segment is included in reference route 908F, and signed for Mosholu Parkway from the Bronx River Parkway. The BroRivPkwy BroParkEast segment isn't shown on the BRP overhead BGSes; it's just included in the reference route.

909D - ny.ocepkwy - Ocean Parkway (Long Island)
If preferred, I can leave the "(Long Island)" specifier out of the City field, leaving this as just the "main" bit of Ocean Parkway.

908H - ny.ocepkwybro - Ocean Parkway (Brooklyn)
No comments here; straightforward enough.

917A - ny.promtnhwy - Prospect Mountain Veterans Memorial Highway
It's reference route 917A all the way to the loop at the summit. But the very end is posted Motorcycles only. As only a limited subgroup of travelers would be able to take the route all the way to the tippy top, I placed the endpoint at the parking lot / overlook.

957A - ny.robmospkwy - Robert Moses State Parkway
957A - ny.niascepkwy - Niagara Scenic Parkway
This was apparently recently renamed Niagara Scenic Parkway. So yeah, I better get on renaming this, I guess. Also, waypoint labels on intersecting routes.

957A - ny.robmospkwynia - Robert Moses State Parkway (Niagara Falls)
957A - ny.niascepkwynia - Niagara Scenic Parkway (Niagara Falls)
Same route name issue as above.
Would "(South) Niagara Falls" be the better descriptor? Meh...
Ongoing reconstruction makes the north end a bit wibbly-wobbly. Shapefiles, the TDV & TDR have the 957A designation extending to Buffalo Ave. But that data isn't new enough to reflect the reconstruction.
Is the stuff north of the roundabout not part of the parkway, but part of John Daly Boulevard instead? FWIW, OSM seems to think so at least. Shrug.

958A - ny.robmospkwyspr - Robert Moses State Parkway Spur
958A - ny.niascepkwyspr - Niagara Scenic Parkway Spur
1.) Same "Robert Moses State Parkway" vs "Niagara Scenic Parkway" issue as above.
2.) Terminus: The data in the shapefiles put the endpoint here. The TDV agrees. I suppose a nicer-looking tweak would be to recenter the endpoint at the turnaround before the fee booth, and not make anyone think they have to pay the fee and enter in order to clinch the route. :)
I thought for like half a second about 1PPI-ing the endpoint back to NY18F, but nay -- someone coming from the mainline parkway would have to proceed past NY18F to some other point anyway. This solution allows travelers to use NY18F and clinch a nonzero, non-100%, amount of the route.
3.) If you look at the system CSVs, you'll notice that "Spr" is included in the Route name, but not as a Banner. Perhaps my thinking is a throwback to the CHM era here: I'm taking the banner column literally; the idea is treating it as if it means "there will be a SPUR banner above this shield", and that the Shield Generator will eventually, in theory, generate something accordingly. So, I just included it in the route name. Then, I went and left out the Abbrev. "Hey, this is just the 'Robert Moses State Parkway Spur', as NYSDOT calls it. And there's only one of them," my thinking went. If there's loud enough consensus that this is kinda wrong, I can change it round. Or another option that I rather like would be to just leave the "Spr" off completely, and have different segments of vanilla "Robert Moses State Parkway", with an abbrev and a specifier in the City field, "Fort Niagara State Park", or "Porter" or something. (Kinda like what I did with the cannss system, although that one doesn't have "spurs" as such.)
See also: Lake Ontario State Parkway Spur
Discuss.

987E - ny.sevlakdr - Seven Lakes Drive
I guess it's officially/internally the Seven Lakes Parkway, but it's signed as Seven Lakes Drive.
Yes, this is the south endpoint. The shapefiles and TDV agree. The 2014 TDR description looks a little screwy, but saying it ends here is a valid interpretation of the mileage figures.
  South of the endpoint, and north of Waldron Terrace, Seven Lakes Drive is not a reference route.
  South of Waldron Terrace, Seven Lakes Drive is reference route 981G, and not part of the Parkway system.
The north terminus doesn't have a corresponding point on US9W/202 yet. Before adding it, I just want to be 100% confident the label should be SevLakDr, and not SevLakPkwy or something.

908L - ny.shofropkwy - Shore Front Parkway
957B - ny.soupkwy - South Parkway
957C - ny.westrivpkwy - West River Parkway
No comments here; straightforward enough.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 02:08:13 pm by yakra »

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways, "official" thread
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2017, 11:49:52 pm »
• Necessary or proposed changes to existing routes (all active systems)
  US1: BosRd_S +-> BroPelPkwy or PelPkwy
  US9W/202: add SevLakDr, or whatever it ends up getting called
  Lake Ontario State Parkway intersecting labels
  Robert Moses / Niagara Scenic intersecting labels
  (intersecting labels for other/all existing usasf routes?)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 03:31:14 pm by yakra »

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways, "official" thread
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2017, 02:44:35 am »
Existing usasf routes: termini, changes, etc.
fee booths, location within park, interchange, end of ref rte, other

###! - ny.beltpkwy - Belt Parkway
9087A, 907B, 907C, 907D
  W: Good.   /   E: Good.

907H - ny.brorivpkwy - Bronx River Parkway
  S: Good.
  Wow, evidently the reference route ends at the Bronx/Westchester line. I'll just walk away yelling LA LA LA holding my hands over my ears, and grandfather this one in.
  N: Northernmost segment, between Kensico Circle and NY22, shown in TDV & shapefiles as Taconic Parkway Road. Signed TO Bronx Pkwy / TO Taconic Pkwy. This may be worthy of a truncation, OTOH.
  Get Exit 10s, Oak St, Yonkers Ave sorted.

907K - ny.crocoupkwy - Cross County Parkway
  W: Good.   /   E: Good.
907A - ny.croislpkwy - Cross Island Parkway
  S: Good.   /   N: Good.

907L - ny.fdroodr - Franklin D. Roosevelt Drive
  S: Good.
  N: Truncate to Exit 17, Triborough Bridge

982L - ny.garstapkwy - Garden State Parkway
  S: Good.   /   N: Good.

907M - ny.gracenpkwy - Grand Central Parkway
  E: Good.
  W: TDV & shapefiles both show an endpoint at the 27th St overpass, AKA the west end of the footprint of the 31st St interchange. TDR: The 2014 edition, in what I'm sensing to be a bit of a theme, looks a bit screwy; the 2011 edition is more human-readable. My takeaway from it all supports an endpoint here as well. GMSV.
  I suppose the world wouldn't END! if I were to extend this route; I'm sure everyone already has I-278 marked (or not) as appropriate.

907P - ny.harrivdr - Harlem River Drive
  S: Extend to Exit 17, Triborough Bridge
  N: Good.

907V - ny.henhudpkwy - Henry Hudson Parkway
  S: The 2014 TDR description looks a little screwy, but a milepost of 1.14 for "W 79TH ST UNDER" is a very close fit for (1.13 mi) a terminus at Exit 8, as we have it now. GMSV suggests that it's parkway this far down too. Leaving as-is.
  N: Good.

###! - ny.hutrivpkwy - Hutchinson River Parkway
907W, 908A
  S: Good.   /   N: Good.

947A - ny.lakeontpkwy - Lake Ontario State Parkway
  W: Truncate to 947A, Lake Ontario State Parkway Spur. Truncated segment (0.2 mi) gets transferred to that route.
  E: Good.

908E - ny.meastapkwy - Meadowbrook State Parkway
  S: Good.   /   N: Good.
908G - ny.norstapkwy - Northern State Parkway
  W: Good.   /   E: Good.
987C - ny.palintpkwy - Palisades Interstate Parkway
  S: Good.   /   N: Good.
908J - ny.robmoscswy - Robert Moses Causeway
  S: Good.   /   N: Good.
908K - ny.sagstapkwy - Sagtikos State Parkway
  S: Good.   /   N: Good.
987D - ny.sawmillpkwy - Saw Mill River Parkway
  S: Good.   /   N: Good.

908M - ny.soustapkwy - Southern State Parkway
  W: Good.
  E: Extend to turnaround just before fee booth, and then...
  Split:
Southern State/Heckscher Parkway

987F - ny.sprbropkwy - Sprain Brook Parkway
  S: Good.   /   N: Good.

908K - ny.sunmeapkwy - Sunken Meadow State Parkway
  S: Good.
  N: Truncate to NY 25A (exit SM5)
     Sunken Meadow State Parkway

987G - ny.tacstapkwy - Taconic State Parkway
  S: Good.   /   N: Good.
908T - ny.wanstapkwy - Wantagh State Parkway
  S: Good.   /   N: Good.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2018, 12:00:15 am by yakra »

Offline Duke87

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NY Parkways (usanyp)
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2017, 12:16:53 am »
I could not locate a specific thread for this anywhere. And I may be jumping the gun on the peer review here, but bear with me, I'm an opinionated local. :P
 
So, some things I noticed that I would recommend changing:

- Mosholu Parkway unambiguously ends at a T intersection with Southern Blvd, and always has. Reference Route 908F does turn up Southern Blvd to end at Bronx River Parkway exit 8, but this section of road is not in any way part of Mosholu Parkway and therefore should not be plotted as part of the route

- the full name of Pelham Parkway is "Bronx and Pelham Parkway", not "Bronx-Pelham Parkway".

- Also, I would argue that the eastern endpoint of Pelham Parkway should be at the point where the ramp from Bruckner Blvd merges in (right about where the divided highway ends), not at I-95 itself. A "one point per interchange" argument could be made to the contrary, but I would counterargue by saying that "ramp" isn't really a ramp - it's part of Shore Rd, and it predates the construction of both Pelham Parkway and I-95 (it used to be two way). Therefore, Pelham Parkway ends at Shore Rd where the two meet.

- Bear Mountain State Parkway could use a point at Carhart Ave (it's a signalized intersection, so major enough to warrant)

- I disagree with including Bay Parkway since it's not signed with any shields anywhere, but if we are including it... why only the eastern half?

- The following also lack any shields and would not by any local be thought of as a "parkway": Shore Front Parkway, Cross Bay Parkway, Ocean Parkway (Brooklyn). I can't comment on the two parkways on Grand Island since I'm not local to there but they also seem suspect to me.

Offline yakra

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usanyp: New York Parkways, "official" thread
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2017, 03:33:21 pm »
Placeholder post...
While I write a system description and comments for each route.
Please bear with me.

Offline vdeane

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Re: NY Parkways (usanyp)
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2017, 10:21:31 pm »
I imagine the definition of the Bay Parkway is based on the reference route, which ends at either the fee booths near the cloverleaf or at the cloverleaf itself.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline vdeane

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Re: NY Parkways (usanyp)
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2017, 07:02:43 pm »
The Robert Moses State Parkway should be renamed to the Niagara Scenic Parkway.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline yakra

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Re: NY Parkways (usanyp)
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2017, 12:09:06 pm »
I know. Please be patient and bear with me. I need to get together a proper discussion on this system.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 12:24:53 pm by yakra »

Offline mariethefoxy

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Re: NY Parkways (usanyp)
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2017, 11:34:46 pm »
Bay Parkway is only signed at its interchange with the meadowbrook, its not limited access at all. From the Wantagh its signed as Jones Beach Field 10/West End Beach

Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn is just a fancy city boulevard basically, same with Pelham Parkway.

Also I cant find this system anywhere on the website. The US Selected named freeways is missing Koren War Vets Parkway which is all limited access in Staten Island NY

Offline Jim

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Re: NY Parkways (usanyp)
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 09:30:28 am »
The usanyp system isn't currently loaded into the DB, as it's not far enough along to be included.  It will appear as a "devel" system when work gets going on it at some point in the future.

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways, "official" thread
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2017, 12:17:30 am »
Big Topic Merge!

Please refer to first post in this new merged thread, to find the notes I compiled while drafting the routes in this system.
These notes should do a lot to answer & explain some of the questions & comments other forum members have posted in the meantime.

I think I'm finally at a point where I can give the usanyp system the attention it deserves, and get back to work on moving it along to Preview status.
Another concurrent task will be a review and cleanup of existing parkways in the usasf system, making sure their endpoints are in the right places, etc.

I'll uncomment usanyp's line in systems.csv, and make it visible in the HB again as of Jim's next site update.
For now though, I need a break from TravelMapping tonight. :)
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 10:54:22 pm by yakra »

Offline Duke87

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2017, 10:30:55 pm »
A general overarching thought here:

Parkways in New York, generally, are signed with some sort of special shield. In Long Island it's the lighthouse shield. In Rockland and Orange counties it's the stylized circles. In Westchester county and upstate, it's the state highway shield shape but green. And in the 5 boroughs it's a mishmosh of inconsistent standards but there *are* shields.

It occurs to me that every road I am having the "wait that's not a parkway, why are we including it?" reaction about has something crucial in common: a lack of shield-based signage. So this would not only provide an objective cutoff for excluding them, it would also be arguably consistent with our general policy on excluding unsigned routes.



Also, with regards to your comment on Pelham Parkway, yes, it is commonly known and signed as simply that. I would support the name in the system being such.

Offline mariethefoxy

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2017, 01:57:23 am »
A general overarching thought here:

Parkways in New York, generally, are signed with some sort of special shield. In Long Island it's the lighthouse shield. In Rockland and Orange counties it's the stylized circles. In Westchester county and upstate, it's the state highway shield shape but green. And in the 5 boroughs it's a mishmosh of inconsistent standards but there *are* shields.

It occurs to me that every road I am having the "wait that's not a parkway, why are we including it?" reaction about has something crucial in common: a lack of shield-based signage. So this would not only provide an objective cutoff for excluding them, it would also be arguably consistent with our general policy on excluding unsigned routes.



Also, with regards to your comment on Pelham Parkway, yes, it is commonly known and signed as simply that. I would support the name in the system being such.

I'd go with if it has a NYSDOT reference route or not. as for NYC they use the green shields as well on:
Korean War Vets Pkwy
Hutchison River Parkway
Bronx River Parkway
Moshulu Parkway

Grand Central Parkway has its own shield
Henry Hudson Parkway uses NY 9A and a white shield.

Cross Island Parkway has a green shield on the time to destination signs in Nassau County, so I'd go with that
Belt Parkway has its own variation of the Long Island lighthouse shield design

Jackie Robinson Parkway as far as I know doesnt have any shields, nor does Pelham Parkway and the Brooklyn Ocean Parkway, as both are treated more as just boulevards rather than a parkway in the sense the limited access ones are.

Offline vdeane

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2017, 07:12:25 pm »
917A - ny.promtnhwy - Prospect Mountain Veterans Memorial Highway
It's reference route 917A all the way to the loop at the summit. But the very end is posted Motorcycles only. As only a limited subgroup of travelers would be able to take the route all the way to the tippy top, I placed the endpoint at the parking lot / overlook.
There is a bus that takes people up on that road, and people walk it as well, so it is still possible to clinch (as long as one is OK with walking a clinch or being a passenger).  Overall, it strikes me as similar to routes ending at military bases, like I-H3, or that truck route in PA that bans cars.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2017, 02:17:06 am »
When I drafted VT65, the Brookfield Floating Bridge was closed to vehicular traffic. (Don't know whether it has since reopened.) I still included the whole route as a single file, figuring that anyone who wanted a full clinch could do as I did: get out and walk. :) (Jumping off for a swim is not required.)
So, there's that precedent. I'll consider extending ProMtnHwy along the full length of 917A.