Author Topic: usanyp: New York Parkways  (Read 1296 times)

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Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2017, 02:53:27 pm »
Up-D*te!
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1521

Robert Moses and Bronx-Pelham Pakways renamed to Niagara Scenic and Pelham Parkways respectively.
Intersecting point labels changed to match route names as shown in the HB, for both new and existing (usasf) parkways. (AltLabels retained as needed.)
SevLakDr endpoint added to US9W/202.

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2017, 02:25:14 am »
Jumping up & down making ape noises, and hitting my computer with a femur.

Code: [Select]
27thSt http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.772283&lon=-73.919830
45 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.770564&lon=-73.917475
+X981717 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.770028&lon=-73.916252
*31stSt http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.769476&lon=-73.912936
31ST-STREET http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.768639&lon=-73.906965
EXIT-5-ACC-ASTORIA-BLVD http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.766851&lon=-73.896972
+X159377 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.766258&lon=-73.892691
+5 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.766867&lon=-73.887734
EXIT-6-94TH-ST http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.770284&lon=-73.879538
2014

Code: [Select]
31-ST-EX-STRT-I-278-OLP http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.772283&lon=-73.919830
+45 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.770564&lon=-73.917475
+X981717 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.770028&lon=-73.916252
+31stSt http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.769476&lon=-73.912936
EX-4-END-OLP-I-278-WEST-B-Q-E-PKY http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.768452&lon=-73.906123
EXIT-5-ACC-ASTORIA-BLVD http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.766770&lon=-73.896441
+X159377 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.766258&lon=-73.892691
+5 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.766867&lon=-73.887734
EXIT-6-94TH-ST http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=40.769951&lon=-73.880133
2011

I mean, uhh... saving these code blocks in case I want to reference them in the future.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 02:32:11 am by yakra »

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 03:12:38 pm »
Another concurrent task will be a review and cleanup of existing parkways in the usasf system, making sure their endpoints are in the right places, etc.
Click on the link for a post detailing what I've found after looking at the termini of each usasf parkway.
I just checked the termini; there may be other points along the routes' length still needing attention, but I'm not focusing my attention there right now.

I'll hold off on making any changes until usanyp is ready to go live. I figure that with the excitement & attention over its activation, people will be going over their .lists to make edits, and can look at what's changed in existing parkways and make any needed edits at the same time.

The biggest inconvenience I see is the FDRooDr / HarRivDr endpoint change; HarRivDr travelers will lose 100% clinches and need to edit .list files.  Reminiscent of the issue with HenHudPkwy when SawMillPkwy was first added to the system.

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2017, 02:13:01 pm »
Thinking a few things through here...

Names:
Even NYSDOT sources aren't consistent in how the names of some parkways are presented. For instance, the TDR lists "Bear Mountain Parkway", whereas the Touring Route Book lists "Bear Mountain State Parkway". Thus I'll be going with what's commonly known and signed, I.E. "Bear Mountain Parkway", "Pelham Parkway", etc.

Spurs:
TMK there are no existing instances of "Spr" being part of the "route" field in a CSV, and not part of the "banner" field. I don't really want to break with precedent here & start doing this for no good reason. Take the example of the Interstates in Maryland. There are a few routes apparently considered spurs by MD DOT. Since the CHM days, these have had "Spr" in the banner field, and thus the shields show up in the CHM HB with the "Spur" banner, even if they're not signed like that in the field. So, there's that precedent.
ETA:The way the TM shield generator works now, the route name is shown as "LakeOntPkwySpr", which does look wrong. OK, I've made up my mind; Spr goes out of the "route" field and into the "banner" field.
The standard for bannered routes is they all get a city/abbrev, even if they're the only bannered route of a particular designation. Thus the Lake Ontario State & Niagara Scenic Parkway spurs would get a city & abbrev.
As for the option I floated of omitting the Spur designation and just having a vanilla route segment with city/abbrev specifiers, I'm cooling down on that a bit. Take the Maryland precedent again -- there's another segment, of I-395, not marked as a spur, considered as a different segment of a mainline route. The M.O. seems to be to recognize spurs as spurs. This will better highlight the distinction from other mainline segments with a city/abbrev specifier, such as BearMtnPkwyCro and NiaScePkwyNia.

Cities:
I consider it best practice to use a city as a city name when practicable, and not another specifier such as a state park, and maintain as much consistency here as we can here. (I suppose that if a parkway can change names, it's possible for a state park to do so too. A town/city/village, probably less likely. So why not use naming that will head off accounting for this (admittedly remote) possibility).
Thus right now I'm leaning more toward "Carlton" and "Porter", and not "Lakeside State Park" and "Fort Niagara State Park" for the Lake Ontario State & Niagara Scenic Parkway spurs.
ETA: I found some assurance in an unexpected place recently when looking over the NS Scenic Travelways. Seeing I consistently used town/city/village names there helps me feel more confident in standardizing around that approach.
Similarly, for consistency, thinking of changing Bear Mountain Parkway (Crompond) to Bear Mountain Parkway (Yorktown).
(Ocean Parkway (Long Island) -> Ocean Parkway (Babylon)? Brooklyn *is* on Long Island, after all...) Or maybe just leave it blank...
NiaScePkwyNia: "Niagara Falls" is good enough for a city specifier. I'm not a fan of unnecessary parenthetical bits in the city field. "(South) Niagara Falls" would add a second set of double parentheses to the name in the HB display. Yecch.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 04:03:01 pm by yakra »

Offline Duke87

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2017, 02:32:39 pm »
(Ocean Parkway (Long Island) -> Ocean Parkway (Babylon)? Brooklyn *is* on Long Island, after all...) Or maybe just leave it blank...

And if you want to be super technical about it, this Ocean Parkway *is not* on Long Island - it is on Jones Beach Island. ;D

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2017, 04:08:29 pm »
And if you want to be super technical about it, this Ocean Parkway *is not* on Long Island - it is on Jones Beach Island. ;D
Works for me. "Ocean Parkway (Long Island)" is out, and either "Ocean Parkway (Babylon)" or just plain "Ocean Parkway" is in.
Any preferences as to which?

Offline Duke87

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2017, 11:54:30 pm »
I'd go with plain "Ocean Parkway".

If there is a desire for some parenthetical name, "Jones Beach" would be best - that is the location most people would associate with the road. "Babylon" is undesirable since while much of the road is technically within the town of Babylon, towns in Long Island are purely political entities - people don't think of geography in terms of them. You say "Babylon" and people will think of the village of Babylon, which Ocean Parkway does not serve.

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2017, 12:27:16 am »
Vanilla "Ocean Parkway" it is.

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2017, 03:58:26 am »
Up-D*te!
https://github.com/TravelMapping/HighwayData/pull/1581

ProMtnHwy extended from overlook to summit.
BearMtnPkwy (Crompond) -> BearMtnPkwy (Yorktown)
LakeOntPkwySpr -> LakeOntPkwySpr (Carlton)
NiaScePkwySpr -> NiaScePkwySpr (Porter)
...these last two have "Spr" in the Banner field of the CSVs, instead of the Route field.

Offline dave1693

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2017, 04:28:31 pm »
Regarding 907V - ny.henhudpkwy - Henry Hudson Parkway
"S: The 2014 TDR description looks a little screwy, but a milepost of 1.14 for "W 79TH ST UNDER" is a very close fit for (1.13 mi) a terminus at Exit 8, as we have it now. GMSV suggests that it's parkway this far down too. Leaving as-is."

I can add personal confirmation for GMSV's suggestion, having traveled down 9A/HHP from the GWB to exit 8 last winter. It's definitely a parkway at least that far.

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2018, 01:46:31 am »
- Bear Mountain State Parkway could use a point at Carhart Ave (it's a signalized intersection, so major enough to warrant)
Agreed, this is a significant enough intersection to include.
That, and it gives me an excuse to tweak the shaping. Sure, it's already within tolerance, but I don't like the way it looks. 8)
Committed to my fork of the HighwayData repo, though I'm not feeling rushed to open a pull request yet.

Offline yakra

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2018, 05:21:55 pm »
A general overarching thought here:

Parkways in New York, generally, are signed with some sort of special shield. In Long Island it's the lighthouse shield. In Rockland and Orange counties it's the stylized circles. In Westchester county and upstate, it's the state highway shield shape but green. And in the 5 boroughs it's a mishmosh of inconsistent standards but there *are* shields.
I'm inclined to give less weight to shields & shield styles for a system such as this.
• Some existing systems have multiple shield styles, E.G. usavt, usatn, (more debatably, cannb before its split into cannba/cannbc/cannbl), and the toll roads in usapa, usafl, & usatx* systems.
• More importantly, I view this as more of a system of named routes, akin to usasf. Think of that system's "Text on a BGS" style of display in the HB, in either TM or CHM. Some-but-not-all of these routes will bear shields.

It occurs to me that every road I am having the "wait that's not a parkway, why are we including it?" reaction about has something crucial in common: a lack of shield-based signage. So this would not only provide an objective cutoff for excluding them,
Aah, but did you have that reaction about the Jackie Robinson Parkway? That one could throw a wrench in the works. As mariethefoxy noted, it doesn't seem to have any shields.

it would also be arguably consistent with our general policy on excluding unsigned routes.
Excluding unsigned numbered routes, we do, yes. But for a system of named routes? These by their nature play by somewhat different rules. Something can be signed by text on a BGS, on a glorified blade sign, on a vanilla blade sign...

When starting development of this system, I foresaw a lot of difficulty in defining "Just what IS a Parkway?"
This gets into the murky philosophical definition of...
What is the Sunken Meadow State Parkway? Is it the route that bears a certain reference number (908K)? Or is it all the roadway that is just named "Sunken Meadow State Parkway"?

After some consideration, I decided to go by what's included in NYS reference routes. It just seems to be the most even, objective cutoff I can make. This allows us to decisively pin down routes' ends, include obvious additions like BetStaPkwy, JacRobPkwy, KorWarPkwy, and allow for a little bit of the expected "This was added, why not this? It's a Parkway, innit?", while keeping it sensible & providing a clear cutoff to keep us from getting carried away & going too far down that rabbit hole.

- Also, I would argue that the eastern endpoint of Pelham Parkway should be at the point where the ramp from Bruckner Blvd merges in (right about where the divided highway ends), not at I-95 itself. A "one point per interchange" argument could be made to the contrary, but I would counterargue by saying that "ramp" isn't really a ramp - it's part of Shore Rd, and it predates the construction of both Pelham Parkway and I-95 (it used to be two way).
My take is that Shore Rd used to be there, but moved. TDV & GIS list the northern path, to the cloverleaf, as Shore Rd itself, and the ramp as a ramp.
TDR, TDV & GIS all three clearly show PelPkwy ending at the I-95 underpass. Thus PelPkwy gets its end here, a step before 1PPI even comes into play.

Quote
Pelham Parkway ends at Shore Rd where the two meet.
I agree with this statement, because I consider Shore Rd to end at at a different point. 8)

- Mosholu Parkway unambiguously ends at a T intersection with Southern Blvd, and always has. Reference Route 908F does turn up Southern Blvd to end at Bronx River Parkway exit 8, but this section of road is not in any way part of Mosholu Parkway and therefore should not be plotted as part of the route
I'm not sold on this. TLDR, Mosholu Parkway is clearly signed @ BRP Exit 8, in both directions.
vdeane, what's your take here?

Offline vdeane

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Re: usanyp: New York Parkways
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 07:50:24 pm »
I looked at the exit list I made for the northern end of the Mosholu Parkway and it appears that I decided to count the mileage beginning with the BRP.  It's certainly an odd case - maybe the sign designers were asking themselves the same question?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.