Author Topic: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)  (Read 2813 times)

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Offline si404

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2017, 07:53:07 pm »
N2 routes

NII (Fraga) - fine
NII (Arcos de Jalón) - fine
NII (Cervera) - fine
NII (Esteras de Medinaceli) - fine
NII (Figueres) - NIIa_FigX are surely N/S rather than E/W?
NII (Santa María de Huerta) - perhaps a point for SOP3002?
NII (Mataró) - fine
NII (La Muela) - fine
NII (Saúca) - fine
NII (Torremocha del Campo) - fine
NII (Zaragoza) - fine
NIIa (Calatayud) - fine
NIIa (La Almunia de Doña Godina) - fine
NIIa (San Andrés de la Barca) - fine
NIIa (Ariza) - fine
NIIa (Figueres) - NII_X should be N/S rather than E/W?
NIIa (Girona) - NII_X should be N/S rather than E/W?
NIIa (Igualada) - fine
NIIz (Montserrat Parc) - a point for the actual settlement of Montserrat Parc?

Offline si404

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2017, 03:47:36 am »
NIII (Minglanilla) - N330_E -> N330_N
NIII (Arganda del Rey) - fine
NIII (Buñol) - fine
NIII (Chiva) - fine
NIII (Montalbo) - fine
NIII (Tarancón) - fine
NIII (Villares del Saz) - fine
NIV (Las Cabezas de San Juan) - PalX -> Pal_X
NIV (Bailén) - fine
NIV (Córdoba) - fine
NIV (Dosbarrios) - fine
NIV (La Guardia) - fine
NIV (Jerez de la Frontera) - fine
NIV (El Puerto de Santa María) - fine
NIV (Villarta de San Juan) - fine
NIVa (La Carlota) - fine
NIVa (El Carpio)    - fine
NIVa (Santa Elena) - fine
NV (Almaraz) - XX95 -> CC95?
NV (Mérida) - fine
NV (Miajadas) - fine
NV (Navalmoral de la Mata) - fine
NV (Talavera la Real) - fine
NV (Trujillo) - fine
NVa (Valmojado) - fine
NVa (Lagartera) - fine
NVI (Lugo) - A6(333) -> LE6424 or EnlPra; A6(549) -> AC151/230
NVI (El Espinar) - fine
NVI (Rueda) - fine
NVI (Tordesillas) - fine
NVIa (Betanzos) - fine

fairly meaningless point - shouldn't these roads radiate from Madrid, rather than head south/east? NV and NVI's A5 and A6 exit numbers decrease as you head up the list. The system isn't a grid.

Offline si404

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2017, 09:49:21 am »
N102 - fine
N104 - fine
N110 - fine
N110a - fine
N111 ((Main)) - N111a_CarN/S -> shouldn't it be Gar?
N111 (Logroño) - fine
N111 (Viana) - fine
N111a (Piqueras) - is Piq necessary in the suffixes? N111_N and N111_S are surely sufficient and more elegant?
N111a (Garray) - ditto with Car (which should surely be Gar?)
N111a (Logroño) - fine
N111a (Soria) - fine
N113 - fine
N120 (Burgos) - GorW -> Gor_W; GorE -> Gor_E; add point for BU-30 exit 11
N120 (Ourense) - fine
N120a (Monforte de Lemos) - fine
N120a (Astorga) - fine
N120a (Santo Domingo de la Calzada) - fine
N121 - fine
N121a - fine
N121b - fine
N121c - fine
N122 (Soria) - QuiOW -> QuiO_W; QuiOE -> QuiO_E; QuiAW -> QuiA_W; QuiAE -> QuiA_E; LanW -> Lan_W; LanE -> Lan_E;
N122 (Zamora) - fine
N122a (La Cistérniga) - fine
N122a (San Martín del Pedroso) - fine
N123 - fine
N123a - fine
N124 - fine
N125 - fine
N126 - fine
N135 - fine
N141 - fine
N145 - fine
N150 - fine
N152 - fine
N154 - wrong border point (needs to meet FRA N20)
N156 - fine

Offline michih

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2017, 12:27:50 pm »
Thanks for the review. I have not yet made my "internal" review... Of course, I'll do the modifications but I'm surprised that you've chosen these system for a review. I have many other system which are already ready for a peer-review.

I think the best review is adding another system and that's what would happen if we would add the tier 5 systems...

Is there any specific reason for your hurry, e.g. the region split action?

Offline si404

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2017, 01:57:09 pm »
Thanks for the review. I have not yet made my "internal" review... Of course, I'll do the modifications but I'm surprised that you've chosen these system for a review.
Well now you know the niggles I have, that internal review should be easier! I expect a very boring peer review when you are done -
 more so than this yawn fest of most routes being fine!  ;)
Quote
I have many other system which are already ready for a peer-review.
True - what one would you like? Austria or Croatia? I'm going to leave off the tier-5 systems while there's tier-4. Especially as most of them aren't small (unlike nlds)
Quote
I think the best review is adding another system and that's what would happen if we would add the tier 5 systems...
Indeed! It also means that deub is undergoing that review, so I'll hold off reviewing it for now.
Quote
Is there any specific reason for your hurry, e.g. the region split action?
The region-split action sparked my interest, plus I started outlining espct with a view to make a good start on the various tier-5 systems this summer, given the call for them.

Offline michih

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2017, 03:00:25 pm »
I expect a very boring peer review when you are done - more so than this yawn fest of most routes being fine!  ;)

:)

Quote
what one would you like? Austria or Croatia?

About 1/3 of swel is already done. Afterwards Croatia and Austria.

Quote
It also means that deub is undergoing that review

Exactly :)

Offline michih

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2017, 01:49:57 pm »
N1 routes

(Beasain) - should end at NC/PV border, end-on with A1?

Not sure what you mean. Maybe moving the end of A1 to NC/PV border too? If so, it's your region, your decision. Change it if you want.


btw: All espn modifications must be done twice, to espn and espnb wpt files because of the split action. Do you wanna review the entire espn system and active it before (or with) activating the region split? It's fine with me but if not, I'd prefer to make the review modifications afterwards when one only wpt file will exist. For now, I'll wait with further review modifications.

Offline si404

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2017, 07:28:33 am »
Not sure what you mean. Maybe moving the end of A1 to NC/PV border too?
The A1 already ends there - that's where the end of the file was and is.
Quote
btw: All espn modifications must be done twice, to espn and espnb wpt files because of the split action. Do you wanna review the entire espn system and active it before (or with) activating the region split? It's fine with me but if not, I'd prefer to make the review modifications afterwards when one only wpt file will exist. For now, I'll wait with further review modifications.
I am planning to (DEU split readiness depending) do them at the same time. I'll note changes you make in espn and make them in espnb.

Offline michih

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Re: Spain
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2017, 10:57:51 am »
blue signed divided highways: espa - tier 1, Autopistas/Autovías maintained by the Red de Carreteras del Estado in most of the country (Central Spanish Government), that would mean leaving there ONLY the motorways starting with A- or AP- (and that doesn't include some autonomical motorways that use the A- as well, like the A-321) AND the urban motorways (the ones with prefixes for the city they're serving name), as they are also maintained by the central Spanish government.

blue/orange/green signed divided highways: eursf - tier 2, autonomical motorways, maintained by the diferent Autonomous Communities.
How do you tell apart a blue signed autonomous community motorway from a blue signed national motorway?

It's a lot more reasonable with red cartouches to keep it to just Ns and exclude the Cs, but with blue cartouches there's a wealth of prefixes for both your proposed systems, some of which overlap - how is the average traveller to know which system to look at to find the route?

As for freeway standards, the A660 in France has roundabouts and is partially single carriageway, several motorways in the UK are substandard, etc, etc. And to over-complicate things because of a very small amount of the kilometrage is just nonsense.

How do we wanna draft CA-36 in Cadiz?
It's indicated with blue CA-36 signs all the way between CA33 and CA35 but it's not a divided highway on the bridge and west of the bridge. The beginning of Autovia sign is east of the bridge.
OSM indicates CA36 from here to the east and N443 for the west section but I couldn't find any N443 sign on GSV (only on AP4 east of CA34). GM indicates CA36 all the way.
CA33 wp label is 'N443' (no evidence) and CA36 on CA35. In addition, CA32 wp with AP4 is called 'AP4/N443'?!?

Meanwhile, we've decided to split the country into regions and I thought a lot about how to draft Spanish routes when I was traveling Spain and Portugal earlier this year.

In addition to the issues mentioned above, I saw these problems:
  • The drafted A7 routes have blue and (partially in the south) red signs
  • C15 has blue (segment drafted) and red signs (segment not drafted)
  • PA30 and PA31 have blue signs but are city streets with roundabouts but are tier 1
  • A1051 has motorway standard but green signs only (not drafted)

My idea of how to categorize the routes:

Tier 1: A1-A91 inkl. AP routes but without (on the contrary to Pepe's suggestion) urban motorways which are also maintained by Spanish government

Tier 4: Nx as-is

Tier 5:
- Regional motorways (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autopistas_y_autov%C3%ADas_de_Espa%C3%B1a#Autopistas.2C_autov.C3.ADas_y_carreteras_de_doble_calzada_auton.C3.B3micas)
- Urban motorways (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autopistas_y_autov%C3%ADas_de_Espa%C3%B1a#Autopistas.2C_autov.C3.ADas_y_multicarril_en_entorno_urbano)
- Red Regional + Red (Inter)Comarcal / Red Regional o Primaria / Red de Primer Nivel / Red Primaria Básica + Red Primaria Complementaria / ... depending on the region (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_de_carreteras_de_Espa%C3%B1a)

Tier 2: Remaining freeways (or motorway-like roads with minimum partially 2 carriageways and median?) of all colors (orange, yellow, green,...)

Offline michih

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2017, 01:38:04 pm »
I'll note changes you make in espn and make them in espnb.

I had to think about it and don't think that it's a good idea.

It's your region, I've drafted espn system, you review espn now and you'll maintain espn in the future.
I think it would be less time-consuming for both of us, if you directly modify the wpts for espn and espnb with your review.

Offline michih

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2017, 01:20:42 pm »
All espn modifications must be done twice, to espn and espnb wpt files because of the split action. Do you wanna review the entire espn system and active it before (or with) activating the region split? It's fine with me but if not, I'd prefer to make the review modifications afterwards when one only wpt file will exist. For now, I'll wait with further review modifications.

@Si: espnb is gone. Do you wanna proceed reviewing Spain? Should I modify the "split" espn files or do you wanna do it?

Offline si404

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Re: Spain Carretera Nacionales (espn)
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2017, 08:35:35 am »
I'm just doing it. Just got the 3xx and 4xx routes left to do (though that's probably a majority of them).

One thing I've noticed is that there, like the Autovias Urbano, are urban routes that seem to be part of the national network, rather than managed by the autonomous communities. I don't want system proliferation so these ought to go into this system (at least for the time being).

I've looked at the Spanish Wikipedia listings for these Urban routes (on the list of Autopistas and Autovias), taken all routes with red cartouches on that list then checked GMSV to see whether they are signed as such. I have the following:
  • A79 in Alicante
  • AC-10, AC-11 (the bit signed red not blue) in La Coruna
  • BA-20 in Badajoz
  • CC-11 in Caceres
  • LU-11 in Lugo
  • OU-11 in Orense
  • SA-11 and SA-20 in Salamanca
  • SC-11 in Santiago Compostela
  • SG-20 in Segovia
  • VA-20 in Valladolid

Offline peperodriguez2710

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Re: Spain
« Reply #57 on: October 15, 2017, 02:22:15 pm »
Sorry for the delay ^^b
My idea of how to categorize the routes:

Tier 1: A1-A91 inkl. AP routes but without (on the contrary to Pepe's suggestion) urban motorways which are also maintained by Spanish government

Tier 4: Nx as-is

Tier 5:
- Regional motorways (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autopistas_y_autov%C3%ADas_de_Espa%C3%B1a#Autopistas.2C_autov.C3.ADas_y_carreteras_de_doble_calzada_auton.C3.B3micas)
- Urban motorways (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:Autopistas_y_autov%C3%ADas_de_Espa%C3%B1a#Autopistas.2C_autov.C3.ADas_y_multicarril_en_entorno_urbano)
- Red Regional + Red (Inter)Comarcal / Red Regional o Primaria / Red de Primer Nivel / Red Primaria Básica + Red Primaria Complementaria / ... depending on the region (https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_de_carreteras_de_Espa%C3%B1a)

Tier 2: Remaining freeways (or motorway-like roads with minimum partially 2 carriageways and median?) of all colors (orange, yellow, green,...)

I think that's even a better option than mine, I usually overcomplicate things, sorry hahahha
I'd only change two things:
I wouldn't do a specific category for regional motorways, as they are at the same time first class regional roads (the last category you said on Tier 5) and many times the same road is one part motorway and one other big part first class regular regional road (take Ma-19 for example, it begins as a motorway with 8 lane sections and at km 26 turns into a first class regional road (with standards similar to national roads) and runs like that until its end in km 60) so we would have the same road divided in sections on diferent categories.
I wouldn't do too the last tier 2 roads as different colors are only for some regional ones (some regions use different colors between state freeways and autonomic ones) so as regional motorways they should be taken as first class regional roads.

I'm just doing it. Just got the 3xx and 4xx routes left to do (though that's probably a majority of them).

One thing I've noticed is that there, like the Autovias Urbano, are urban routes that seem to be part of the national network, rather than managed by the autonomous communities. I don't want system proliferation so these ought to go into this system (at least for the time being).

I've looked at the Spanish Wikipedia listings for these Urban routes (on the list of Autopistas and Autovias), taken all routes with red cartouches on that list then checked GMSV to see whether they are signed as such. I have the following:
  • A79 in Alicante
  • AC-10, AC-11 (the bit signed red not blue) in La Coruna
  • BA-20 in Badajoz
  • CC-11 in Caceres
  • LU-11 in Lugo
  • OU-11 in Orense
  • SA-11 and SA-20 in Salamanca
  • SC-11 in Santiago Compostela
  • SG-20 in Segovia
  • VA-20 in Valladolid
Yeah, all urban roads listed there are managed by the Red de Carreteras del Estado except the ones in Balearic and Canary islands. One thing to note is that some of them aren't motorways or even part of them is motorway standard and the other one is regular road, so be cautious and look GSV before deciding.

If you need any info about out our so complex system, I'll be glad to help you.
Thank you very much, have a nice day!

Offline michih

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Re: Spain
« Reply #58 on: October 15, 2017, 03:05:07 pm »
I wouldn't do a specific category for regional motorways, as they are at the same time first class regional roads (the last category you said on Tier 5)

I didn't suggest a different category. I just said that all these routes should be tier 5.

However, Si has started drafting Ma routes and put them into a new "espib" system. I guess it will be part of a tier 5 system but I'm not sure.

If you need any info about out our so complex system, I'll be glad to help you.

There is a discussion about Spanish road signage on SSC for many years... :)

Offline peperodriguez2710

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Re: Spain
« Reply #59 on: October 15, 2017, 04:19:27 pm »
I didn't suggest a different category. I just said that all these routes should be tier 5.

However, Si has started drafting Ma routes and put them into a new "espib" system. I guess it will be part of a tier 5 system but I'm not sure.

Sorry for misunderstanding then, if any help is needed to look after first class regional roads, here I am!

BTW, I saw that finally we have as regions autonomous communities of Spain, and that's fantastic. I don't know if its definitive, but I believe that state managed A-XX motorways and national roads should stay in Spain region as they go across all the country, and also the autonomus city enclave of Melilla is missing. As I said, if it's still a work in progress, sorry hahaha